Discussion:
IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
(too old to reply)
Phil Smith III
2018-11-27 20:33:37 UTC
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Anyone know how IND$FILE got its name? Just randomly wondered today.






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Charles Mills
2018-11-27 21:48:40 UTC
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Is IND the component prefix for PCOMM? So IND$FILE's name is kind of like
IEBCOPY's name? Prefix + function?

Charles


-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 3:33 PM
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Subject: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

Anyone know how IND$FILE got its name? Just randomly wondered today.

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Mike Schwab
2018-11-27 21:58:32 UTC
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http://gsf-soft.com/Documents/IND$FILE.html
Post by Charles Mills
Is IND the component prefix for PCOMM? So IND$FILE's name is kind of like
IEBCOPY's name? Prefix + function?
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 3:33 PM
Subject: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Anyone know how IND$FILE got its name? Just randomly wondered today.
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Tom Conley
2018-11-27 22:05:44 UTC
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Post by Mike Schwab
http://gsf-soft.com/Documents/IND$FILE.html
Even after his passing, Gilbert continues to contribute. RIP, notre ami.

Regards,
Tom Conley
Tom Conley
2018-11-27 22:06:06 UTC
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Post by Mike Schwab
http://gsf-soft.com/Documents/IND$FILE.html
Even after his passing, Gilbert continues to contribute. RIP, notre ami.

Regards,
Tom Conley

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Edward Finnell
2018-11-27 21:58:12 UTC
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It's been marked 'Corporate Confidential' for years.

In a message dated 11/27/2018 2:33:46 PM Central Standard Time, ***@AKPHS.COM writes:
IND$FILE got its name?

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Mike Hochee
2018-11-27 22:03:11 UTC
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Makes sense. One would expect anything in d' money file to be marked 'Corporate Confidential'

I know, pretty bad.

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Edward Finnell <0000000248cce9f3-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 4:58 PM
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Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

It's been marked 'Corporate Confidential' for years.

In a message dated 11/27/2018 2:33:46 PM Central Standard Time, ***@AKPHS.COM writes:
IND$FILE got its name?

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Phil Smith III
2018-11-28 01:47:21 UTC
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That link doesn't tell me anything about the name that I can see.



Somewhere I think I still have a copy of the one and only manual that documents the protocol. It was part of some early version of
PCOMM, IIRC, and is very rare. Still doesn't explain the name.



Charles' explanation might be it, but we still don't have confirmation.






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Charles Mills
2018-11-28 14:36:39 UTC
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There is a link map on that link (hmmm, two different meanings of "link"
there) that shows INDxxxxx CSECT names, so I think it establishes that IND
is the component prefix.

FILE is pretty obvious, like the COPY in IEBCOPY.

So the only remaining question is "why the dollar sign?" (Or pound sign, for
those of you so geographically disposed.)

At my old company we reverse-engineered the protocol.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 8:47 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

That link doesn't tell me anything about the name that I can see.

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Roger Bolan
2018-11-28 15:57:41 UTC
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This is a really vague memory, but I think that the name IND$FILE goes all
the way back, possibly to Windows 3.1. I think the product back then was
PC3270.
--Roger
Post by Charles Mills
There is a link map on that link (hmmm, two different meanings of "link"
there) that shows INDxxxxx CSECT names, so I think it establishes that IND
is the component prefix.
FILE is pretty obvious, like the COPY in IEBCOPY.
So the only remaining question is "why the dollar sign?" (Or pound sign, for
those of you so geographically disposed.)
At my old company we reverse-engineered the protocol.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
That link doesn't tell me anything about the name that I can see.
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Charles Mills
2018-11-28 16:25:58 UTC
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Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roger Bolan
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 10:57 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

This is a really vague memory, but I think that the name IND$FILE goes all
the way back, possibly to Windows 3.1. I think the product back then was
PC3270.
--Roger
Post by Charles Mills
There is a link map on that link (hmmm, two different meanings of "link"
there) that shows INDxxxxx CSECT names, so I think it establishes that IND
is the component prefix.
FILE is pretty obvious, like the COPY in IEBCOPY.
So the only remaining question is "why the dollar sign?" (Or pound sign, for
those of you so geographically disposed.)
At my old company we reverse-engineered the protocol.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2018 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
That link doesn't tell me anything about the name that I can see.
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Mike Wawiorko
2018-11-28 16:34:59 UTC
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Back to the IBM 3270 PC perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC

Mike Wawiorko 

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Charles Mills
Sent: 28 November 2018 16:26
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?


This mail originated from outside our organisation - ***@MCN.ORG

Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.

Charles



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Seymour J Metz
2018-11-28 16:48:53 UTC
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That was certainly the product that the command was intended to support, but where did the name come from? The use of a $ in the name was certainly distinctive.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Mike Wawiorko <0000014ab5cdfb21-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 11:34 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

Back to the IBM 3270 PC perhaps.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VjEx55xJh9AR096IStif_MVIpdaL4nPVITWQvm5y2Q4mhv5Hf-9lELCyxhDolwdk-8LbbwcW1bWERo4con7ZPKoV20NS0WVDn-29Xq-UubBU-YUlA6MJwbx0aMAfd_9l6laiNsHreykcUFvLAyMrsZo6gVXUqrYDc3IrY7Qs3ONYRTcZDFX63U4qFeRdae2MLIQ8yZoPSvWHY8sEJgb5VfwBh2Wnl1D5ji5nhfUpXwvDUjkUvwxXsuTm973Vmc3B8LtWJOJ58rmv-zDoUNYsppKzbXmilPP2LTPJb3n7E_QvANGJ-jnNzPWKM1CzAEpiMbmtOu2r7Y2YLKNyfL2jCANPdainy8KGxZuqAjc1PUNtA7XAp6KqS2forSvRPkGg/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIBM_3270_PC

Mike Wawiorko

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Charles Mills
Sent: 28 November 2018 16:26
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?


This mail originated from outside our organisation - ***@MCN.ORG

Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.

Charles



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1***@gmail.com
2018-12-07 15:42:36 UTC
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I think the use of the $ was intended to pictorially suggest upload/download.
Post by Seymour J Metz
That was certainly the product that the command was intended to support, but where did the name come from? The use of a $ in the name was certainly distinctive.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Back to the IBM 3270 PC perhaps.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1VjEx55xJh9AR096IStif_MVIpdaL4nPVITWQvm5y2Q4mhv5Hf-9lELCyxhDolwdk-8LbbwcW1bWERo4con7ZPKoV20NS0WVDn-29Xq-UubBU-YUlA6MJwbx0aMAfd_9l6laiNsHreykcUFvLAyMrsZo6gVXUqrYDc3IrY7Qs3ONYRTcZDFX63U4qFeRdae2MLIQ8yZoPSvWHY8sEJgb5VfwBh2Wnl1D5ji5nhfUpXwvDUjkUvwxXsuTm973Vmc3B8LtWJOJ58rmv-zDoUNYsppKzbXmilPP2LTPJb3n7E_QvANGJ-jnNzPWKM1CzAEpiMbmtOu2r7Y2YLKNyfL2jCANPdainy8KGxZuqAjc1PUNtA7XAp6KqS2forSvRPkGg/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIBM_3270_PC
Mike Wawiorko
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 28 November 2018 16:26
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.
Charles
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Any opinion or other information in this e-mail or its attachments that does not relate to the business of the Barclays Group is personal to the sender and is not given or endorsed by the Barclays Group.
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Martin Packer
2018-11-28 17:22:18 UTC
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Maybe back as far as MYTE.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

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From: Mike Wawiorko <0000014ab5cdfb21-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: 28/11/2018 16:35
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



Back to the IBM 3270 PC perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC


Mike Wawiorko

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf
Of Charles Mills
Sent: 28 November 2018 16:26
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?


This mail originated from outside our organisation - ***@MCN.ORG

Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.

Charles



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Roger Bolan
2018-11-29 01:03:18 UTC
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YES! That's what I was trying (and failing) to remember.
Now if somebody has the documentation for that it might explain the name
IND$FILE.

On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 9:35 AM Mike Wawiorko <
Post by Mike Wawiorko
Back to the IBM 3270 PC perhaps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC
Mike Wawiorko
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 28 November 2018 16:26
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Back well before Windows 3. Back to DOS.
Charles
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Edward Finnell
2018-11-28 17:30:47 UTC
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ISTR there is/was a naming committee. Maybe there's an archive. Bill Neiman in the ESA roll-out said XCF was the 34th choice.

In a message dated 11/28/2018 11:22:25 AM Central Standard Time, ***@UK.IBM.COM writes:
Maybe back as far as MYTE.

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-11-28 22:50:15 UTC
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Post by Edward Finnell
It's been marked 'Corporate Confidential' for years.
What's the license status of IND$FILE?

If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules. And IBM has no obligation to
support or document it.

If it was licensed to particular OS releases, no longer marketed, users
on later releases may be in license violation.

The client has been reverse-engineered for numerous platforms (e.g.
Kermit). Might this violate a "no reverse-engineering" clause?
(I believe it uses the 7171/Yale IUP convention of using an improbable
sequence of 327x commands to put the client in data transfer mode.)

Could IBM take legal action against any perceived violations? I believe
that would be a bad PR move.

What CCSIDs does it support?

IBM doesn't want to discuss it.

-- gil

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Seymour J Metz
2018-11-29 19:06:37 UTC
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I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also believe that it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is considered insecure these days.)


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 5:50 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Edward Finnell
It's been marked 'Corporate Confidential' for years.
What's the license status of IND$FILE?

If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules. And IBM has no obligation to
support or document it.

If it was licensed to particular OS releases, no longer marketed, users
on later releases may be in license violation.

The client has been reverse-engineered for numerous platforms (e.g.
Kermit). Might this violate a "no reverse-engineering" clause?
(I believe it uses the 7171/Yale IUP convention of using an improbable
sequence of 327x commands to put the client in data transfer mode.)

Could IBM take legal action against any perceived violations? I believe
that would be a bad PR move.

What CCSIDs does it support?

IBM doesn't want to discuss it.

-- gil

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John Eells
2018-11-30 12:33:02 UTC
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Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also believe that it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is considered insecure these days.)
<snip>

IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know, support
for it has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Robert Prins
2018-12-01 19:47:03 UTC
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Post by John Eells
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also believe that
it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is
considered insecure these days.)
<snip>
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported.  As far as I know, support for it
has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
If it's supported, then would you be willing to make a small change to it, to
use SDB, rather than whatever hardcoded blocksize it's using now. FWIW, I zapped
it, and I believe there there is a list of locations to zap for various (older)
versions around.

Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org

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Edward Finnell
2018-11-29 01:20:11 UTC
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Anybody have a handle on Sam Lapore?

In a message dated 11/28/2018 7:03:26 PM Central Standard Time, ***@GMAIL.COM writes:
Now if somebody has the documentation for that it might explain the name
IND$FILE.

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Tom Marchant
2018-11-29 14:18:57 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
What's the license status of IND$FILE?
If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules.
Browsing the load module reveals this:

5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083

1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.

That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
--
Tom Marchant

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zMan
2018-11-29 14:44:13 UTC
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"LICENCED" suggests UK origin. Interesting.

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 9:19 AM Tom Marchant <
Post by Tom Marchant
Post by Paul Gilmartin
What's the license status of IND$FILE?
If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules.
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF
IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
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David Spiegel
2018-11-29 14:50:09 UTC
Permalink
I disagree. OCO, IIRC, started in 1983.
Post by Tom Marchant
Post by Paul Gilmartin
What's the license status of IND$FILE?
If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules.
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2018-11-29 15:07:47 UTC
Permalink
I agree, during my first years at MVS, we still used microfiches to find out what IBM had done / done wrong (in our opinion).
It could well be at 1983 that this was hidden from us.

Kees.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Spiegel
Sent: 29 November, 2018 15:50
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
I disagree. OCO, IIRC, started in 1983.
Post by Tom Marchant
Post by Paul Gilmartin
What's the license status of IND$FILE?
If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and
others
Post by Tom Marchant
Post by Paul Gilmartin
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules.
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF
IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
Post by Tom Marchant
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and
charge for some software.
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Seymour J Metz
2018-11-29 18:34:04 UTC
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Don't confuse OCO with licensed software. OCO means that you don't have access to the source even if the program is public domain; licensed means that it only legal to use it if you have a license, even if it provided in source form. I'm aware of several licensed programs that were available *only* in source form.

Copyright is yet another concept, although licensed software is generally copyrighted.


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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of David Spiegel <***@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 9:50 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

I disagree. OCO, IIRC, started in 1983.
Post by Tom Marchant
Post by Paul Gilmartin
What's the license status of IND$FILE?
If it was delivered before IBM licensed software, customers and others
are free to use it anywhre, even Hercules.
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
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Tom Marchant
2018-11-29 18:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spiegel
I disagree. OCO, IIRC, started in 1983.
You might be right, I can't remember. I was certainly using microfiche into the '80s.

However, MVS as a program product was a few years before 1983.
--
Tom Marchant
Post by David Spiegel
Post by Tom Marchant
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
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Seymour J Metz
2018-11-29 18:40:06 UTC
Permalink
OCO was a gradual infestation. DF/DS, DF/EF (15 % discount on plasma), MVS/SE, MVS/SP and, as I recall, DFP, preceded it, and the was still microfiche for, e.g., TSO/E, long after OCO had started.


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Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 1:19 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by David Spiegel
I disagree. OCO, IIRC, started in 1983.
You might be right, I can't remember. I was certainly using microfiche into the '80s.

However, MVS as a program product was a few years before 1983.

--
Tom Marchant
Post by David Spiegel
Post by Tom Marchant
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
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Phil Smith III
2018-11-29 19:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Finnell
Anybody have a handle on Sam Lapore?
Lepore? Why? Context/relevance?


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Edward Finnell
2018-11-29 19:49:58 UTC
Permalink
He was a TSO developer around that time. They had a clist compiler and CMS under MVS but couldn't get it out the door. Last presentation at SHARE was RATSO(Really Advanced). My thought was he would know the author. I found a few hits but looks like he's gone from IBM to BMW.

In a message dated 11/29/2018 1:44:14 PM Central Standard Time, ***@AKPHS.COM writes:
Lepore? Why? Context/relevance?

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-11-29 19:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also believe that it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is considered insecure these days.)
I suspect that some auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.

How secure is IND$FILE? Probably as secure for transport as the terminal protocol. But
it still may transgress policies prohibiting data on personal devices (ref. HRC).
Post by Seymour J Metz
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
Might there have been earlier releases not so licen[cs]e encumbered
and/or available in source?

-- gil

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Tom Brennan
2018-11-29 20:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Gilmartin
I suspect that some auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.
Or maybe just to avoid delays in getting what an auditor might call
"proper" access. For example, I've used IND$FILE to transfer an entire
dumped/xmited 3390 volume to a client site, because getting sftp port
access (and the associated big ZFS allocated and mounted) would have
probably taken weeks.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
How secure is IND$FILE? Probably as secure for transport as the terminal protocol.
Correct. Once a TN3270 SSL session is established, IND$FILE data (and
even the underlying TN3270 protocol communication) is all encrypted.

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Seymour J Metz
2018-11-29 20:26:07 UTC
Permalink
c ' auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE' ''

AFAIK, IND$FILE has always required a license.



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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 2:52 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also believe that it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is considered insecure these days.)
I suspect that some auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.

How secure is IND$FILE? Probably as secure for transport as the terminal protocol. But
it still may transgress policies prohibiting data on personal devices (ref. HRC).
Post by Seymour J Metz
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
Might there have been earlier releases not so licen[cs]e encumbered
and/or available in source?

-- gil

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Lester, Bob
2018-11-29 20:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

Found this: http://gsf-soft.com/Documents/IND$FILE.html

Thanks!
BobL

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 1:26 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from? [ EXTERNAL ]

c ' auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE' ''

AFAIK, IND$FILE has always required a license.



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https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mason.gmu.edu_-7Esmetz3&d=DwIFAw&c=huW-Z3760n7oNORvLCN2eBo-Ehm9Q_bNeNJaAMovBjQ&r=Qowhtqe2n9CP4j5cKgUfmAFB9ziwNIdru4NRZBXkzeA&m=IOg4G9PeM8qUbHsE6035huho-AA2riVixNTgiZ2Z-Ek&s=UTSpeGHEl--HHWkbbdsTZV8tZKFIdvnMbDv4VEocSPA&e=

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Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 2:52 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license. I also
believe that it is long out of support and less efficient than, e.g.,
SFTP (yes, FTP is considered insecure these days.)
I suspect that some auditors are unaware that many terminal emulators imbed IND$FILE and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.

How secure is IND$FILE? Probably as secure for transport as the terminal protocol. But it still may transgress policies prohibiting data on personal devices (ref. HRC).
Post by Seymour J Metz
5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF
IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083
1983 was several years after IBM went OCO.
That, in turn was several years after they started to license and charge for some software.
Might there have been earlier releases not so licen[cs]e encumbered and/or available in source?

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-11-29 22:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Brennan
Post by Paul Gilmartin
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.
Or maybe just to avoid delays in getting what an auditor might call
"proper" access. For example, I've used IND$FILE to transfer an entire
dumped/xmited 3390 volume to a client site,
Don't *you* need to be the client to control IND$FILE? (I'd say, "instructed
a client to use IND$FILE to transfer from my site.")
Post by Tom Brennan
... because getting sftp port
access (and the associated big ZFS allocated and mounted) would have
probably taken weeks.
Understood about port access. But no need for "big ZFS". once you have
sftp you have ssh, so:
cp -B "//'ENTIRE.XMITED.VOLUME'" /dev/fd/1" | ssh client.site "cp -B /dev/fd/0 '//''client.site.volume'''"
(gasp!) Might even use OUTDD option of TRANSMIT to eliminate one more large data set.

-- gil

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Tom Brennan
2018-11-29 23:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Don't *you* need to be the client to control IND$FILE? (I'd say, "instructed
a client to use IND$FILE to transfer from my site.")
Yes, IND$FILE performs the host side processing, and I had access to TSO
via a terminal emulator on a company laptop.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Understood about port access. But no need for "big ZFS". once you have
cp -B "//'ENTIRE.XMITED.VOLUME'" /dev/fd/1" | ssh client.site "cp -B /dev/fd/0 '//''client.site.volume'''"
(gasp!) Might even use OUTDD option of TRANSMIT to eliminate one more large data set.
Most of that is beyond my comprehension. The only way I know to use MVS
sftp is with a USS file. That doesn't mean other methods don't exist -
it's just all I know. In this case I had no root access to mount a new
big ZFS. I probably could have thought of something, but then IND$FILE
worked.

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Seymour J Metz
2018-12-02 19:20:20 UTC
Permalink
I believe that he's using a different meaning of client, e.g., customer.

IND$FILE, SFTP and WSA are all easier to use for people who are not at home with the Eunix utilities.


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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 5:47 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Tom Brennan
Post by Paul Gilmartin
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.
Or maybe just to avoid delays in getting what an auditor might call
"proper" access. For example, I've used IND$FILE to transfer an entire
dumped/xmited 3390 volume to a client site,
Don't *you* need to be the client to control IND$FILE? (I'd say, "instructed
a client to use IND$FILE to transfer from my site.")
Post by Tom Brennan
... because getting sftp port
access (and the associated big ZFS allocated and mounted) would have
probably taken weeks.
Understood about port access. But no need for "big ZFS". once you have
sftp you have ssh, so:
cp -B "//'ENTIRE.XMITED.VOLUME'" /dev/fd/1" | ssh client.site "cp -B /dev/fd/0 '//''client.site.volume'''"
(gasp!) Might even use OUTDD option of TRANSMIT to eliminate one more large data set.

-- gil

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Schuffenhauer, Mark
2018-12-03 22:49:56 UTC
Permalink
About all I can add is, I started to work with IND$FILE in 1987. And the associated fun things, like LU6.2 connections to PS/2's, PC/3270 and so on. I remember calling it Independent File Transfer. At the time it was cool, but so was Token Ring.

It was fine until someone wanted a big file, and didn't understand anything like data compression, or how little storage they had their PS/2, even if they got the file, they couldn't open it. It was slow, but honestly, unless you had something figured out a way to break file transfer into multiple streams everything was slow, unless it was worth it to make it faster. Dialup lasted far longer than I ever thought it would.

"Oh bye, bye, thirty-seven-O-five, closed the valve to chiller, but the chiller was dry..." <--- Yes I know, 3704/3705 air cooled, but nothing else worked.

"Why can't I send a VSAM or BDAM file on IND$FILE?" "Why can't I send character and non-character data mixed?" "You can, but it's not 'magic' on both ends." Got to know your data.

"I got my file and it's all encrypted, what's wrong?" "You might want to check the ASCII/TEXT box."

Still questions today on the mainframe BLKSIZE, or why a PDS won't work, on upload and the 'encrypted' data in the end file in any place it ends up.

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 1:20 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

I believe that he's using a different meaning of client, e.g., customer.

IND$FILE, SFTP and WSA are all easier to use for people who are not at home with the Eunix utilities.


--
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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 5:47 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Tom Brennan
Post by Paul Gilmartin
and employees use it to circumvent policies prohibiting data transfer.
Or maybe just to avoid delays in getting what an auditor might call
"proper" access. For example, I've used IND$FILE to transfer an entire
dumped/xmited 3390 volume to a client site,
Don't *you* need to be the client to control IND$FILE? (I'd say, "instructed a client to use IND$FILE to transfer from my site.")
Post by Tom Brennan
... because getting sftp port
access (and the associated big ZFS allocated and mounted) would have
probably taken weeks.
Understood about port access. But no need for "big ZFS". once you have sftp you have ssh, so:
cp -B "//'ENTIRE.XMITED.VOLUME'" /dev/fd/1" | ssh client.site "cp -B /dev/fd/0 '//''client.site.volume'''"
(gasp!) Might even use OUTDD option of TRANSMIT to eliminate one more large data set.

-- gil

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Timothy Sipples
2018-11-30 07:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that IND$FILE is included in your z/OS license.
IBM Program Number 5665-311, 3270 PC File Transfer Program for TSO, is
still marketed and supported as a standalone product (as I write this).
However, starting with z/OS 2.1, it is included in the z/OS base operating
system license. Refer to IBM Announcement Letter 213-292 for confirmation.
Post by Seymour J Metz
I also believe that it is long out of support...
No, it's still IBM supported.
Post by Seymour J Metz
...and less efficient than, e.g., SFTP (yes, FTP is considered
insecure these days.)
FTPS is another choice.

As for efficiency, it depends on how you measure efficiency. IND$FILE can
be extremely efficient all around when a user with a terminal emulator
transfers a small file on an ad hoc basis. It can also be extremely
efficient when somebody's manual, or REXX script, or macro contains
precise, already functioning instructions on how to transfer a file in the
correct, format preserving way, and you'd otherwise be tearing your hair
out trying to make an alternative file transfer path work for no compelling
enough reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Tom Brennan
2018-11-30 07:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Sipples
As for efficiency, it depends on how you measure efficiency. IND$FILE can
be extremely efficient all around when a user with a terminal emulator
transfers a small file on an ad hoc basis.
A terminal emulator may also have a setting for the IND$FILE buffer
size, and as you might expect making that bigger makes things go a lot
faster. Maybe something to look into if you have no choice but to use
IND$FILE for larger files.

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2018-11-30 13:00:01 UTC
Permalink
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know, support for it has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
Indeed and thanks for the clarification. I am somewhat perplexed by this discussion. This module is found in SYS1.CMDLIB and as of z/OS v2.2, I see this eye-catcher there (note the years in the copyright statement):

"5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083"

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Mike Schwab
2018-11-30 14:57:26 UTC
Permalink
It hasn't been updated since 1988.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 7:00 AM Elardus Engelbrecht
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know, support for it has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
"5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083"
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
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John Eells
2018-11-30 16:09:59 UTC
Permalink
The text in the section from which the eye-catcher below was extracted
has certainly not been updated since 1988. But the last of the six PTFs
(UR43604) for this FMID (HFX1112) was made available 2 June 1995.
Post by Mike Schwab
It hasn't been updated since 1988.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 7:00 AM Elardus Engelbrecht
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know, support for it has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
"5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083"
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John Eells
2018-11-30 15:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know, support for it has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
"5665-311 COPYRIGHT IBM CORP 1983,1988; LICENCED MATERIAL - PROPERTY OF IBM, REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTIONS FORM NO. G120-2083"
This is a very old FMID.

Unless and until we repackage the FMID, all the module headers will
remain the same, including the product number and copyright dates.
Further, it would not surprise me to learn that the referenced form
number has been history for decades now.

If you find eye-catchers for, say, MICR/OCR (EMI2220) or TIOC (ETI1106,
I think, or possibly ETI1102; I didn't look it up but I'm pretty sure
it's one or the other) I would expect to see similarly dated information
in them.
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-11-30 19:37:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timothy Sipples
IBM Program Number 5665-311, 3270 PC File Transfer Program for TSO, is
still marketed and supported as a standalone product (as I write this).
However, starting with z/OS 2.1, it is included in the z/OS base operating
system license. Refer to IBM Announcement Letter 213-292 for confirmation.
Which doesn't answer the (idly curious) question, "What component
has prefix IND?"
Post by Timothy Sipples
Post by Seymour J Metz
I also believe that it is long out of support...
No, it's still IBM supported.
It's been marked 'Corporate Confidential' for years.
Is there any doc for this IBM supported product that's not marked
'Corporate Confidential' It's ironic if all doc for a supported product
is confidential.

Unless it's non-GUPI, intended only for use with supported clients?

Does IBM support any such clients nowadays? PC 3270? Are all
supported clients from ISVs? Do ISV's reverse-engineer the interface,
or are interface specs available to them, perhaps by license, subject
to NDA?

-- gil

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Tony Harminc
2018-11-30 22:07:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 at 14:37, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does IBM support any such clients nowadays?
I have an old (2006) version of Pcom "Workstation Program Version 5.9 for
Windows" that seems to have a built-in client.

And the Help->About has a link to the "support home page" at
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/personal-communications which offers
a free 90-day trial, so at least some version appears to still be supported.

PC 3270? Are all supported clients from ISVs? Do ISV's reverse-engineer
Post by Paul Gilmartin
the interface,
or are interface specs available to them, perhaps by license, subject to
NDA?
I've never seen any interface specs from IBM, except the obviously
unofficial file "SS-HCS12-1372-00.pdf" that was mentioned on this list in
2015. I think the most well known reverse engineer is Mike Rayborn of
CBT607 fame, but it has doubtless been done independently by several people.

Tony H.

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Jesse 1 Robinson
2018-12-01 05:16:34 UTC
Permalink
I didn't notice anyone asking (or answering preemptively) the question of what IND$FILE is or how it works. First off, it is not a 'file transfer tool' like FTP or SFTP. It is a program that spoofs 3270 terminal data entry to up or download data. There's a component on mainframe and another on Windows. The reason it's so slow is that it simulates keyboard entry. Not elegant but competent. Not ideal for large files, but here's how I made peace with it long ago.

IND$FILE can completely process a modest file while I'm still trying to get FTP syntax right. For the third time. It's worth my money.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 2:07 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does IBM support any such clients nowadays?
I have an old (2006) version of Pcom "Workstation Program Version 5.9 for Windows" that seems to have a built-in client.

And the Help->About has a link to the "support home page" at https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/personal-communications which offers a free 90-day trial, so at least some version appears to still be supported.

PC 3270? Are all supported clients from ISVs? Do ISV's reverse-engineer
Post by Paul Gilmartin
the interface,
or are interface specs available to them, perhaps by license, subject
to NDA?
I've never seen any interface specs from IBM, except the obviously unofficial file "SS-HCS12-1372-00.pdf" that was mentioned on this list in 2015. I think the most well known reverse engineer is Mike Rayborn of
CBT607 fame, but it has doubtless been done independently by several people.

Tony H.


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Ed Jaffe
2018-12-01 07:53:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
The reason it's so slow is that it simulates keyboard entry. Not elegant but competent. Not ideal for large files, but here's how I made peace with it long ago.
IND$FILE protocol hasn't simulated true keyboard entry for a long, Long,
LONG time.

Any terminal 'ca 1980s supporting EDS (extended data stream) orders will
support structured fields. Competent IND$FILE clients *should* use
structured fields to send or receive the data rather than the old way,
which relied on the character representation of the data being passed
through a terminal buffer. Yikes!

Even so, as you say it's slow compared to TCP/IP transfers because it is
a half-duplex protocol, there is no coat-tailing or Nagle algorithm, the
buffer sizes are not particularly large, and TGET/TPUT and similar 3270
brethren were never designed for speed.
--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/


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Seymour J Metz
2018-12-02 18:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Of course it's a file transfer tool. I'd question the word "spoof"; it uses the 3270 data stream, but it doesn't simulate data entry. Nor is windows the only PC operating system supported.

The reason that it's so slow has nothing to do with keyboard entry, which it doesn't simulate.

I rarely used IND$FILE when I had FTP or WSA available.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson <***@SCE.COM>
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 12:13 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?

I didn't notice anyone asking (or answering preemptively) the question of what IND$FILE is or how it works. First off, it is not a 'file transfer tool' like FTP or SFTP. It is a program that spoofs 3270 terminal data entry to up or download data. There's a component on mainframe and another on Windows. The reason it's so slow is that it simulates keyboard entry. Not elegant but competent. Not ideal for large files, but here's how I made peace with it long ago.

IND$FILE can completely process a modest file while I'm still trying to get FTP syntax right. For the third time. It's worth my money.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 2:07 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does IBM support any such clients nowadays?
I have an old (2006) version of Pcom "Workstation Program Version 5.9 for Windows" that seems to have a built-in client.

And the Help->About has a link to the "support home page" at https://secure-web.cisco.com/1N22jYV-kChXngo58ROmM_Q-qapgSwBbJu1BgZke-m5_yzwqnKzMNp__od-j243qJAFa5D2e1P8RqXWGZV7PKZs6o9dQFaBp5Gwwjh5Q5cUTloGBG4j97hxkV2Zpq0O1yYTCSsA1k7vYjsDykABBnDSGjROGG4hxdYTLZKINHCSDmeqMVHrRy-EVZAJM_fzehrgO6t4p-jcoWnWSC1vW3PsXbdUUY4vFwL0t4SS1Xal892_c4W4hA4z7HecA1qi-hBXXnYryveiyBTf7DpXiJyeNgMoJL1ZdTohZePtKlU93W6pRIt5XD04BAAjIB2G6kCxto4bGtx29kV4D5vQQNekSCU4UMbwPrZbXVfNRidzwaI8p1SCeGYcyq-Ao4XHFYaQyYVNHVI1BQFCIV3djEiEh5RejGZPigC9EJvqvcUk14DIBVLfTh8IcN-k25m_Bc/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fus-en%2Fmarketplace%2Fpersonal-communications which offers a free 90-day trial, so at least some version appears to still be supported.

PC 3270? Are all supported clients from ISVs? Do ISV's reverse-engineer
Post by Paul Gilmartin
the interface,
or are interface specs available to them, perhaps by license, subject
to NDA?
I've never seen any interface specs from IBM, except the obviously unofficial file "SS-HCS12-1372-00.pdf" that was mentioned on this list in 2015. I think the most well known reverse engineer is Mike Rayborn of
CBT607 fame, but it has doubtless been done independently by several people.

Tony H.


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Michael Stein
2018-12-01 19:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seymour J Metz
OCO was a gradual infestation. DF/DS, DF/EF (15 % discount on plasma),
MVS/SE, MVS/SP and, as I recall, DFP, preceded it, and the was still
microfiche for, e.g., TSO/E, long after OCO had started.
OCO was a lot more gradual than the speed IBM drove. I wonder if IBM
realized that.

Once upon a time we had 7171's for dial up 3270 sessions. And TSO users
would get stuck. Their session would be left so they couldn't log back
on and they couldn't reconnect.

The operators couldn't cancel the left over session, though the system
did say "cancel command accepted".

A dump of the hung TSO session showed the initiator task RB waiting on
the cancel ECB for the TSO session. This RB wasn't running (even if the
cancel ECB was posted) because it wasn't the topmost RB on the initiator
tasks TCB RB chain.

The topmost RB was an IRB from VTAM waiting for some VTAM event so I
opened a problem with IBM VTAM.

VTAM looked at several dumps of this case but VTAM wanted traces of a
failing case -- Yes, trace all 7171's on a production system for something
which happened possibly several times a week. And the problem wasn't
know about until until someone tried to logon which could be any amount
of time after the problem hit.

No.

They also couldn't understand why the user wasn't cancelable.

Locally we eventually figured out that varying the LU for the TSO session
inactive (possibly requiring force) would cause the waiting VTAM request
complete follwed by the initator canceling the user (if a cancel command
had been issued). This wasn't really a good solution as it took operator
intervention and/or system programming staff intervention and also our
local policy was to avoid "force" unless it was to avoid an IPL.

The only useful information from VTAM was that the hang was a result of
an incomplete reconnect where the old TSO address space had committed
to connect to a specific inbound session which had likely dropped.

After months of nothing useful from VTAM, I looked deeper. I didn't need
to "fix", just stop the user from being locked out.

The VTAM module was OCO. Well, not so great.

However, downstairs we had old microfiche. How old? Tww versions back.

Ah, a bit of looking at the fiche and disassembly of the current module
and things become clear. I can see that this isn't the first time VTAM
has had a hang in this module. There are multiple VTAM calls with later
added STIMER timeouts around them. But no timeout on the one I'm stuck on
(of course).

A quick zap to the module to add a STIMER around the VTAM call with the
STIMER exit just issuing ABEND "fixed" the problem. The non-reconnected
address space terminates and the user can re-logon without any operator
intervention.

Just a disasm wouldn't have helped as much as having the old fiche which
told what the module was doing. So OCO had an effect more on new sites,
and on IBM as they got less help from the field.

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-12-01 20:37:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Prins
Post by John Eells
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported.  As far as I know, support for it
has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
If it's supported, then would you be willing to make a small change to it, to
use SDB, rather than whatever hardcoded blocksize it's using now. FWIW, I zapped
it, and I believe there there is a list of locations to zap for various (older)
versions around.
One for each version, or several for each? If the latter, I hope it's
an EQU where a one-line change suffices.

Sounds like an RFE.

Or has IBM a blanket policy of replacing hardcoded blocksize with SDB?

IIRC, IBM changed IEBGENER to rely on SDB, then needed to backtrack
because customers depended on the prior behavior.

And IBM's changing Rexx EXECIO to rely on SDB broke some of my EXECs
because SDB chose an invalid blocksize in some cases where the Rexx
runtime had chosen a valid one. SR suggested an existing PTF, intended
for JES, that solved my problem. But then cautioned, "That PTF causes
Rexx to behave contrary to specification, and the adverse behavior might
return if a customer reported a problem. You should always specify
BLKSIZE."

-- gil

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Don Leahy
2018-12-01 23:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Why all the love for IND$FILE? ISPF's workstation agent (WSA) is a far
superior solution to the problem of sending files between your work station
and the mainframe. Easy to automate (see the ISPF FILEXFER service) and is
included with ISPF at no additional cost.

On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 3:37 PM Paul Gilmartin <
Post by Robert Prins
Post by John Eells
IND$FILE, as part of z/OS, remains supported. As far as I know,
support for it
Post by Robert Prins
Post by John Eells
has never lapsed (certainly not since its inclusion into OS/390).
If it's supported, then would you be willing to make a small change to
it, to
Post by Robert Prins
use SDB, rather than whatever hardcoded blocksize it's using now. FWIW, I
zapped
Post by Robert Prins
it, and I believe there there is a list of locations to zap for various
(older)
Post by Robert Prins
versions around.
One for each version, or several for each? If the latter, I hope it's
an EQU where a one-line change suffices.
Sounds like an RFE.
Or has IBM a blanket policy of replacing hardcoded blocksize with SDB?
IIRC, IBM changed IEBGENER to rely on SDB, then needed to backtrack
because customers depended on the prior behavior.
And IBM's changing Rexx EXECIO to rely on SDB broke some of my EXECs
because SDB chose an invalid blocksize in some cases where the Rexx
runtime had chosen a valid one. SR suggested an existing PTF, intended
for JES, that solved my problem. But then cautioned, "That PTF causes
Rexx to behave contrary to specification, and the adverse behavior might
return if a customer reported a problem. You should always specify
BLKSIZE."
-- gil
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Paul Gilmartin
2018-12-01 23:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Leahy
Why all the love for IND$FILE? ISPF's workstation agent (WSA) is a far
superior solution to the problem of sending files between your work station
and the mainframe. Easy to automate (see the ISPF FILEXFER service) and is
included with ISPF at no additional cost.
Linux?
MacOS?
Solaris?
... ?

1. FTP (requires workstation FTP server).
o Download using FTP. ISPF invokes the host FTP client to connect with the FTP server
on your workstation and transfer the WSA installation program.
...
Well, gee. If I already have FTP to my workstation, why do I need to install
something else to transfer files?

-- gil

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Don Leahy
2018-12-02 00:12:29 UTC
Permalink
So what? You can also download it using IND$FILE. That was the last time
I used IND$FILE.

I prefer WSA because it is very easy to automate using Rexx.

On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 6:52 PM Paul Gilmartin <
Post by Seymour J Metz
Post by Don Leahy
Why all the love for IND$FILE? ISPF's workstation agent (WSA) is a far
superior solution to the problem of sending files between your work
station
Post by Don Leahy
and the mainframe. Easy to automate (see the ISPF FILEXFER service) and
is
Post by Don Leahy
included with ISPF at no additional cost.
Linux?
MacOS?
Solaris?
... ?
1. FTP (requires workstation FTP server).
o Download using FTP. ISPF invokes the host FTP client to connect with the FTP server
on your workstation and transfer the WSA installation program.
...
Well, gee. If I already have FTP to my workstation, why do I need to install
something else to transfer files?
-- gil
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Seymour J Metz
2018-12-02 18:41:12 UTC
Permalink
There are other reasons to install WSA.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 6:52 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: IND$FILE -- where did the name come from?
Post by Don Leahy
Why all the love for IND$FILE? ISPF's workstation agent (WSA) is a far
superior solution to the problem of sending files between your work station
and the mainframe. Easy to automate (see the ISPF FILEXFER service) and is
included with ISPF at no additional cost.
Linux?
MacOS?
Solaris?
... ?

1. FTP (requires workstation FTP server).
o Download using FTP. ISPF invokes the host FTP client to connect with the FTP server
on your workstation and transfer the WSA installation program.
...
Well, gee. If I already have FTP to my workstation, why do I need to install
something else to transfer files?

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-12-02 00:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Leahy
So what? You can also download it using IND$FILE. That was the last time
I used IND$FILE.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Linux?
MacOS?
Solaris?
... ?
-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-12-04 21:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that he's using a different meaning of client, e.g., customer.
IND$FILE, SFTP and WSA are all easier to use for people who are not at home with the Eunix utilities.
My favorite approach has been NFS. It puts my z/OS data on my desktop
and my desktop data on z/OS. No manifest "transfer"; it's just there. I
can use z/OS facilities on desktop files and desktop facilities on z/OS
files -- whatever works best. If either system did everything, I wouldn't
need the other.

And, I don't need to deal with Windows.

-- gil

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