Discussion:
Use of 3850 MSS?
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-21 18:32:03 UTC
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I have a dispute at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_hard_disk_drives#Competing_devices> with another Wikipedia editor about the nature of the 3850, and would like some feedback on who used it for what. Thanks.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Steve Thompson
2017-12-21 20:28:16 UTC
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The US Gov't data center I worked in obtained a 3850 (MSS - Mass
Storage System). At least I remember it being called a 3850.

It was 1979 when that system was installed.

The best way to explain/describe its function: It was really an
early ATL/VTS (Virtual Tape System).

So, JES3 would stage off to a 3350(s) from the 3850, and then
stage the data set back to the 3850 carts.

The system had two storage units (Honeycomb design for holding
the "tape reel/cartridge") a "parking unit" and an access unit.
Plus it had 16 3350 drives dedicated to it.

That's about as much as I remember.

Regards,
Steve Thompson
Post by Seymour J Metz
I have a dispute at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_hard_disk_drives#Competing_devices> with another Wikipedia editor about the nature of the 3850, and would like some feedback on who used it for what. Thanks.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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sherob2 sherob
2017-12-21 20:39:00 UTC
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You can read more here...


https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html

[Loading Image...]<https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html>

IBM Archives: IBM 3850 mass storage system<https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html>
www-03.ibm.com
IBM Archives: Exhibits: IBM Storage: IBM 3850 mass storage system





________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Steve Thompson <***@COPPER.NET>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:29 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Use of 3850 MSS?

The US Gov't data center I worked in obtained a 3850 (MSS - Mass
Storage System). At least I remember it being called a 3850.

It was 1979 when that system was installed.

The best way to explain/describe its function: It was really an
early ATL/VTS (Virtual Tape System).

So, JES3 would stage off to a 3350(s) from the 3850, and then
stage the data set back to the 3850 carts.

The system had two storage units (Honeycomb design for holding
the "tape reel/cartridge") a "parking unit" and an access unit.
Plus it had 16 3350 drives dedicated to it.

That's about as much as I remember.

Regards,
Steve Thompson
I have a dispute at <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTalk%3AHistory_of_hard_disk_drives%23Competing_devices&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d4c34cfb83845e924a708d548b19442%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494849896988801&sdata=KmMO4i7nOnlfVcjumTg8ZZvsenZDFjB8ohlcExMM5jg%3D&reserved=0> with another Wikipedia editor about the nature of the 3850, and would like some feedback on who used it for what. Thanks.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5d4c34cfb83845e924a708d548b19442%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636494849896988801&sdata=puJeyb4WdTXP8SjVZIEiKaONpN7Eh%2FpV%2BMYViFxq9f4%3D&reserved=0
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Edward Finnell
2017-12-21 20:43:36 UTC
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Yeah that's where I found the ghost link to videos.
Wiki has a link to pretty good set of picture from Columbia.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/mss.html Still no luck with working video.
 
In a message dated 12/21/2017 2:40:29 PM Central Standard Time, ***@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

 
You can read more here...

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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-21 20:48:45 UTC
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No JES3 was not involved in the staging and destaging. Also, a VTL uses DASD to simulate tape. The 3850 implemented virtual 3330 volumes, staging data from helical recording tape cartridges to 3330 or 3330-mode 3350 staging drives.

With luck it didn't drop cartridges on the floor. ;-)


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Steve Thompson <***@COPPER.NET>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:29 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Use of 3850 MSS?

The US Gov't data center I worked in obtained a 3850 (MSS - Mass
Storage System). At least I remember it being called a 3850.

It was 1979 when that system was installed.

The best way to explain/describe its function: It was really an
early ATL/VTS (Virtual Tape System).

So, JES3 would stage off to a 3350(s) from the 3850, and then
stage the data set back to the 3850 carts.

The system had two storage units (Honeycomb design for holding
the "tape reel/cartridge") a "parking unit" and an access unit.
Plus it had 16 3350 drives dedicated to it.

That's about as much as I remember.

Regards,
Steve Thompson
I have a dispute at <https://secure-web.cisco.com/19nrxTeW_NGaE79QcLvRqvcmHhC8rQ8teel9lMO_5h7cjMWz5U996ofKIUG_JVkQEsQf9OEMY8GvAO2kPqVbh02AZoMuf3opvNJs8VwcGRSDqCU8IzrVzpgJC3gIF1i70pOZIj6-1fAxYh--Kwqnzlw8LuKtQs74QooFmchnb-84eVNT7eIDIHgI5vyw40lyMr5QhMSXJB2CWeBbjKHqUTMo0DMSEk4RXNi5pMVYZGr_4ZnlWNCTpHM5MWRkKfbr5dVTaOFUdtrmjetIbYqY77Hp76SFNELYTgnFujWnEipRw922O2MLeVf5BUZAPqnT_H8tT0A58T4BJfeYmlHb0J4gnCjL76f-VOuNCEmjHvcS6bS1gTYfuGFAbQamKATQp/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTalk%3AHistory_of_hard_disk_drives#Competing_devices> with another Wikipedia editor about the nature of the 3850, and would like some feedback on who used it for what. Thanks.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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Nigel Morton
2017-12-21 23:58:40 UTC
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Post by Seymour J Metz
I have a dispute at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_hard_disk_drives#Competing_devices> with another Wikipedia editor about the nature of the 3850, and would like some feedback on who used it for what. Thanks.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
I was an IBM SE in 1979 responsible for installing an MSS in a UK customer. Brain dump follows.

The MSS was used as an extension of disk storage, providing mountable 3330 images accessed via the staging drives. There was no access from MVS to the cartridges at all. The original design for the customer was to access the MSS only via HSM (pre-DFHSM, HSM release 2.0 at installation time) but that plan fell apart when virtual volumes were used directly which made the eventual decommissioning much harder that it need have been. The 3830s were known as staging adapters, IIRC, and were unique models. I was told that the 3851 Mass Storage Controller was a 370/145 but I have no firm evidence for that. The MSS was configured using a gruesome process known as Table Create.

I was also told that IBM's lateness in the tape library market was due to a product planner viewing automated tape libraries, ATLs, purely as an MSS replacement. On those grounds there was no business case at all for ATL development given the small number of MSSs sold. STK weren't burdened by such blinkered thinking and consequently cleaned up the mainframe ATL market for years. Thus, I think it unhelpful to state that the MSS competed with ATLs as it predated the STK libraries. Many MSSs were replaced by STK libraries but they were end-of-life by that time. The last MSS I was aware of in the UK was used by a government department well into the 2000s, long past the time it would have been cheaper and much faster to store the A01's 35 GB of data on disk.

Nigel Morton

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