Discussion:
curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
(too old to reply)
John McKown
2017-06-08 15:44:32 UTC
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This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a
program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems
to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys
were "freed up", what could they be used for?
--
Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
encryption standard and they came up with ...

Student: EBCDIC!

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Steve Thompson
2017-06-09 01:47:23 UTC
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Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a
program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems
to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys
were "freed up", what could they be used for?
IBM Prolog for 370 (MVS) used them and it was a V=V program product.

It had originally used Key9, but CICS pushed the development
group and it got changed. Seemed that when Prolog was run in a
CICS space it caused CICS problems by making a page here and
there key9.

The keys were set to assist the engine in determining when a heap
or stack was about to overflow. For either one, the first time it
PIC4ed it was noted that garbage collection had to be done. If it
fell back below the "warning" page, the flag was reset. If it got
up to and hit the second page, then it began cleanup and shutdown
due to lack of memory for heap or stack, which ever it was that
had run out of room.

All of this was done to make it run as much as possible like it
had under VM. As a result, IBM's Prolog on the MVS platform was
much faster than any competitors (or so I was told in those days).

That is as much as I can remember. I wrote the CHANGKEY code,
cross-memory charge back SMF record, and SVC for it back in 1991.
I haven't seen any of it since.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Allan Staller
2017-06-09 13:30:43 UTC
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Ripped it out of my last shop. The SMF30 has a bit(?) that indicates V=R was used.
Spun 90 days worth of type 30's to prove it was not in use and then removed the spec.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 8:48 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run
a program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support
seems to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if
those keys were "freed up", what could they be used for?
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Steve Smith
2017-06-09 14:26:01 UTC
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The only reason I can think of for V=R is for an old program that builds
its own channel programs and doesn't translate the addresses. That would
have to be a very old program.

sas
Post by Allan Staller
Ripped it out of my last shop. The SMF30 has a bit(?) that indicates V=R was used.
Spun 90 days worth of type 30's to prove it was not in use and then removed the spec.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run
a program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support
seems to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if
those keys were "freed up", what could they be used for?
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Steve Thompson
2017-06-09 17:06:03 UTC
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I have forgotten the name of it, but IBM had a utility for
checking terminals (I think that was it), and it ran V=R. I just
can't remember the name of it anymore -- probably because I
haven't heard of it being used for over 20 years now.

And just before I hit SEND, someone posts about OLTEP. That was
the program I was thinking of.


Regards,
Steve Thompson
Post by Steve Smith
The only reason I can think of for V=R is for an old program that builds
its own channel programs and doesn't translate the addresses. That would
have to be a very old program.
sas
<SNIPPAGE>

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Carmen Vitullo
2017-06-09 17:17:39 UTC
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yep ! OLTEP I believe HAD to run V=R - talk about way back :)


Carmen

----- Original Message -----

From: "Steve Thompson" <***@COPPER.NET>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 12:07:00 PM
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?

I have forgotten the name of it, but IBM had a utility for
checking terminals (I think that was it), and it ran V=R. I just
can't remember the name of it anymore -- probably because I
haven't heard of it being used for over 20 years now.

And just before I hit SEND, someone posts about OLTEP. That was
the program I was thinking of.


Regards,
Steve Thompson
Post by Steve Smith
The only reason I can think of for V=R is for an old program that builds
its own channel programs and doesn't translate the addresses. That would
have to be a very old program.
sas
<SNIPPAGE>

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John Eells
2017-06-09 17:52:48 UTC
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Post by Carmen Vitullo
yep ! OLTEP I believe HAD to run V=R - talk about way back :)
<snip>

I seem to recall, though I have not run it in a Long Time, that OLTEP
itself was happy with V=V, but that some of the OLTs (online tests)
required V=R, including one or more of the 3420 OLTs. I don't plan to
try it out, though (grin).
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Carmen Vitullo
2017-06-09 18:16:35 UTC
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I'm sure your memory better than mine, last time I saw our IBM CE/SE's run OLTEP was when I worked for Sears in Philly back in the 80's - thinking 370/158 days thru 3033 maybe 3081 ")


Carmen


----- Original Message -----

From: "John Eells" <***@US.IBM.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 12:53:48 PM
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by Carmen Vitullo
yep ! OLTEP I believe HAD to run V=R - talk about way back :)
<snip>

I seem to recall, though I have not run it in a Long Time, that OLTEP
itself was happy with V=V, but that some of the OLTs (online tests)
required V=R, including one or more of the 3420 OLTs. I don't plan to
try it out, though (grin).
--
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IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-06-09 03:54:55 UTC
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I don't recall coding V=R for any address space, but when we first got into internal DR via XRC between data centers around Y2K, we were forced to carve out DR LPARs from existing production boxes. We would configure storage offline from a large production LPAR in order to IPL DR LPARs in the newly available storage. In order to get that to work reliably, we had to define the storage segment as reconfigurable at POR, which I understood to isolate the storage as if V=R. Details are fuzzy, but the process was discouraged although supported by IBM; without it, CF STOR offline might never succeed.

Thankfully we are way past those constraints.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2017 6:48 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run
a program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support
seems to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if
those keys were "freed up", what could they be used for?
IBM Prolog for 370 (MVS) used them and it was a V=V program product.

It had originally used Key9, but CICS pushed the development group and it got changed. Seemed that when Prolog was run in a CICS space it caused CICS problems by making a page here and there key9.

The keys were set to assist the engine in determining when a heap or stack was about to overflow. For either one, the first time it PIC4ed it was noted that garbage collection had to be done. If it fell back below the "warning" page, the flag was reset. If it got up to and hit the second page, then it began cleanup and shutdown due to lack of memory for heap or stack, which ever it was that had run out of room.

All of this was done to make it run as much as possible like it had under VM. As a result, IBM's Prolog on the MVS platform was much faster than any competitors (or so I was told in those days).

That is as much as I can remember. I wrote the CHANGKEY code, cross-memory charge back SMF record, and SVC for it back in 1991.
I haven't seen any of it since.

Regards,
Steve Thompson


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R.S.
2017-06-09 09:20:17 UTC
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Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a
program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems
to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys
were "freed up", what could they be used for?
IMHO it's like gramtather's grampohone. It's still in the room, but no
one has been using for years. And there is no real need to do it.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-06-09 09:47:06 UTC
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This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys were "freed up", what could they be used for?
IMHO it's like gramtather's grampohone. It's still in the room, but no one has been using for years. And there is no real need to do it.
Reminds me of that short 'landline phone' gag of Garfield where his owner is struggling with it:

https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/04 <-- "what is that noise?"
https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/05 <-- "why do we still have this thing?"
https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/06 <-- Is the camera on the phone working?
https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/07 <-- Remembering good old times using it to order pizzas
https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/08 <-- don't use it anymore

Then finally moving to 'modern' phones...

https://garfield.com/comic/2017/04/14 <-- incorrect usage of cell-phone camera

... and discovering his laptop has a camera after passing one million views.... ouch ...

https://garfield.com/comic/2017/05/21


It is Friday, I'm outta here... ;-)


Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-06-09 14:14:16 UTC
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Post by Allan Staller
Ripped it out of my last shop. The SMF30 has a bit(?) that indicates V=R was used.
That is SMF30SFL, 'Storage Flag' in Storage and Paging Section, V=R is indicated by bit 0.
Post by Allan Staller
Spun 90 days worth of type 30's to prove it was not in use and then removed the spec.
Can IEFUSI changes the thing that V=R is in use or not? In other words, reverse that specification? Just curious.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Allan Staller
2017-06-09 14:17:28 UTC
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IEFUSI could, but is it worth the work?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 9:15 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by Allan Staller
Ripped it out of my last shop. The SMF30 has a bit(?) that indicates V=R was used.
That is SMF30SFL, 'Storage Flag' in Storage and Paging Section, V=R is indicated by bit 0.
Post by Allan Staller
Spun 90 days worth of type 30's to prove it was not in use and then removed the spec.
Can IEFUSI changes the thing that V=R is in use or not? In other words, reverse that specification? Just curious.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-06-09 14:31:47 UTC
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Post by Allan Staller
IEFUSI could, but is it worth the work?
Thanks. No, it is not the work and risks worth!

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Greg Dyck
2017-06-09 16:42:26 UTC
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Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a
program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems
to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys
were "freed up", what could they be used for?
It has been 30 years since I saw a program that actually required V=R to
run successfully, and that was only for specific OLTEP test programs
that dynamically modified CCW chains. believe that device being tested
no longer exists.

I believe most installations set IEASYSxx REAL= to 0 a long time ago,
and never looked back. If they did not, then they should.

As to keys 10 through 15, I don't see a great need for using them.

Regards,
Greg

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Richards, Robert B.
2017-06-09 16:47:39 UTC
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I seem to remember that V=R was used with MVS/XA running under VM/XA SF and you could bounce VM/XA SF and the guest would stay up.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Greg Dyck
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 12:43 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by John McKown
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run
a program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support
seems to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if
those keys were "freed up", what could they be used for?
It has been 30 years since I saw a program that actually required V=R to run successfully, and that was only for specific OLTEP test programs
that dynamically modified CCW chains. believe that device being tested
no longer exists.

I believe most installations set IEASYSxx REAL= to 0 a long time ago, and never looked back. If they did not, then they should.

As to keys 10 through 15, I don't see a great need for using them.

Regards,
Greg

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Greg Dyck
2017-06-09 16:54:40 UTC
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Post by Richards, Robert B.
I seem to remember that V=R was used with MVS/XA running under VM/XA SF and you could bounce VM/XA SF and the guest would stay up.
That was a *VM* V=R user, not a MVS V=R address space.

Regards,
Greg

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Richards, Robert B.
2017-06-09 16:56:59 UTC
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So much for a 30yr old memory. :-)

Thanks Greg!

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Greg Dyck
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 12:56 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by Richards, Robert B.
I seem to remember that V=R was used with MVS/XA running under VM/XA SF and you could bounce VM/XA SF and the guest would stay up.
That was a *VM* V=R user, not a MVS V=R address space.

Regards,
Greg

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Mark Jacobs - Listserv
2017-06-09 16:50:41 UTC
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Over 20 years ago for me. Never looked back.
June 9, 2017 at 12:43 PM
It has been 30 years since I saw a program that actually required V=R to
run successfully, and that was only for specific OLTEP test programs
that dynamically modified CCW chains. believe that device being tested
no longer exists.
I believe most installations set IEASYSxx REAL= to 0 a long time ago,
and never looked back. If they did not, then they should.
As to keys 10 through 15, I don't see a great need for using them.
Regards,
Greg
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June 8, 2017 at 11:45 AM
This still seems to be supported in z/OS 2.2. Does anyone need to run a
program V=R in today's world? I'm just curious because this support seems
to be a "waste" of protect keys 10 through 15. Of course, if those keys
were "freed up", what could they be used for?
--
Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
encryption standard and they came up with ...
Student: EBCDIC!
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-06-09 17:19:36 UTC
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We have this line in PARMLIB IEASYSxx:

REAL=0, /* 03/04/11 JOR PER HEALTH CHECKER */

Indicates that up until 2011, we were setting some V=R; '100' as far as I can tell from old member versions. As I said previously, we used some V=R to facilitate configuring storage offline in order to activate DR LPARs. By 2011 we had acquired a dedicated DR box supported by GDPS, so we no longer needed to fiddle with storage.

.
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J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
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323-715-0595 Mobile
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-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Richards, Robert B.
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 9:58 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?

So much for a 30yr old memory. :-)

Thanks Greg!

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Greg Dyck
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2017 12:56 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: curious: Anybody still use ADDRSPC=REAL ?
Post by Richards, Robert B.
I seem to remember that V=R was used with MVS/XA running under VM/XA SF and you could bounce VM/XA SF and the guest would stay up.
That was a *VM* V=R user, not a MVS V=R address space.

Regards,
Greg


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