Discussion:
The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison
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Mark Regan
2017-05-19 15:29:16 UTC
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https://dzone.com/articles/the-mainframe-versus-the-server-farm-a-comparison
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Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
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Lizette Koehler
2017-05-19 15:37:41 UTC
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Not bad.

Google, Facebook, and Twitter own giant data centers all over the planet, and they are built with racks of commodity hardware. If thousands upon thousands of small servers networked together are good enough for Google, Facebook, and Twitter, then shouldn’t they be good enough for you? Perhaps you remember IBM’s famous commercial “The servers, they stole all our servers!“. Consolidating all of that complexity into a mainframe might be just what you need. Let’s take a look at what the mainframe really is, and consider its use cases.


I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE


The following article has been contributed by Carla Schroder, Technical Writer at the SUSE Documentation Team. The original article has been published in German at DataCenter Insider. A big “Thank You” to chief editor Ulrike Ostler for the permission to publish the article in English at the SUSE blog.

https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-comparison/


Lizette
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Mark Regan
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:30 AM
Subject: Fwd: The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison
https://dzone.com/articles/the-mainframe-versus-the-server-farm-a-comparison
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Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
--
Thanks,
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
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Mark Post
2017-05-19 16:26:32 UTC
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-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-compariso
n/
I was just going to point that out, but you beat me to it. I'll add that it's nice working for a company that appreciates the role of the mainframe in modern IT.


Mark Post

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Mark Jacobs - Listserv
2017-05-19 17:04:04 UTC
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That's so cool. I'm a Facebook friend of the author.

Mark Jacobs
May 19, 2017 at 12:27 PM
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-compariso
n/
I was just going to point that out, but you beat me to it. I'll add that it's nice working for a company that appreciates the role of the mainframe in modern IT.
Mark Post
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May 19, 2017 at 11:39 AM
Not bad.
Google, Facebook, and Twitter own giant data centers all over the
planet, and they are built with racks of commodity hardware. If
thousands upon thousands of small servers networked together are good
enough for Google, Facebook, and Twitter, then shouldn’t they be good
enough for you? Perhaps you remember IBM’s famous commercial “The
servers, they stole all our servers!“. Consolidating all of that
complexity into a mainframe might be just what you need. Let’s take a
look at what the mainframe really is, and consider its use cases.
I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE
The following article has been contributed by Carla Schroder,
Technical Writer at the SUSE Documentation Team. The original article
has been published in German at DataCenter Insider. A big “Thank You”
to chief editor Ulrike Ostler for the permission to publish the
article in English at the SUSE blog.
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-comparison/
Lizette
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May 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM
https://dzone.com/articles/the-mainframe-versus-the-server-farm-a-comparison
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Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
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--
Thanks,
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
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Mike Schwab
2017-05-20 02:52:49 UTC
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S/370 operating systems and Linux on System Z can be run on Hercules
on a small PC.

Post by Mark Post
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-compariso
n/
I was just going to point that out, but you beat me to it. I'll add that it's nice working for a company that appreciates the role of the mainframe in modern IT.
Mark Post
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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zMan
2017-05-20 22:59:57 UTC
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And you can drive across the country on a bicycle. Doesn't make it the best
choice for most use cases.
Post by Mike Schwab
S/370 operating systems and Linux on System Z can be run on Hercules
on a small PC.
http://youtu.be/BrYmA3JXIqA
Post by Mark Post
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE
-snip-
Post by Lizette Koehler
https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-
versus-server-farm-compariso
Post by Mark Post
Post by Lizette Koehler
n/
I was just going to point that out, but you beat me to it. I'll add
that it's nice working for a company that appreciates the role of the
mainframe in modern IT.
Post by Mark Post
Mark Post
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
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Mike Schwab
2017-05-23 04:38:34 UTC
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July 22 to 28, 2007, across Iowa.
http://www.bikejournal.com/journal.asp?month=7&jyear=2007 .
Even got to speak to Mr. Porkchop and Lance Armstrong.


I met the wife in Indiana just after the first book came out and they
had finished their second continent. She decided to stay where the
Beatles visited India and divorced Tim who came back to Indiana to
deal with a parent's estate and now lives in Whitefish MT working as a
Ski instructor and substitute math and science teacher.
http://downtheroad.org/

This family did a three year trip from the north coast of Alaska to
the southern tip of south america, and a few other trips. Got a
certificate of accomplishment for first kids to do it. Not published
since the dropped the category of 'Youngest to do ...' during their
trip. http://familyonbikes.org/

A site hosting many bicycle traveler's stories and pictures.
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/
Post by zMan
And you can drive across the country on a bicycle. Doesn't make it the best
choice for most use cases.
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-05-20 23:37:10 UTC
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Post by Mike Schwab
S/370 operating systems and Linux on System Z can be run on Hercules
on a small PC.
max z196 config with 80 processors was rated at 50BIPS and went for
$30M. Last published peak I/O benchmark was for z196 with 104 FICONs
(running over 104 fibre channel) getting 2M IOPS.

same z196 time-frame e5-2600v1 was 400-550BIPS (depending on model)
... about 10 times max z196. Also in same time frame, native fibre
channel was announced for e5-2600 claiming over million IOPS (for single
fibre channel, two such fibre channel with more thruput than 104 FICON,
FICON is heavy duty prototol running over fibre channel that drastically
reduces native throughput).

current max configured z13 is still around $30M and 100BIPS ...
compared to e5-2600v4 around 1500BIPS (1.5TIPS, more than 10 times z13,
not strictly "small").

Before IBM got out of server business it had base list price for e5-2600
as $1815 (a little over $3/BIPS, compared to z13 now around
$300,000/BIPS). IBM also had a high-density rack holding something like
64 blades ... would now be possibly 100,000BIPS in single rack.

Large cloud operations claim they assemble their own blades for 1/3rd
the price of brand named blades ... around $1/BIPS ... possibly
contributing to IBM selling off its server business.

typical cloud megadatacenter "server farm" will have several hundred
thousand blades.

recent posts mentioning e5-2600/mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#1 GREAT presentation on the history of the mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#57 What are mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#58 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#88 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#10 WD ships 'world's largest' 12TB HGST Ultrastar He12 Helium 7200 RPM Enterprise HDDs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#94 Migration off Mainframe to other platform
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Clark Morris
2017-05-20 23:54:38 UTC
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[Default] On 20 May 2017 16:37:10 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Post by Mike Schwab
S/370 operating systems and Linux on System Z can be run on Hercules
on a small PC.
max z196 config with 80 processors was rated at 50BIPS and went for
$30M. Last published peak I/O benchmark was for z196 with 104 FICONs
(running over 104 fibre channel) getting 2M IOPS.
same z196 time-frame e5-2600v1 was 400-550BIPS (depending on model)
... about 10 times max z196. Also in same time frame, native fibre
channel was announced for e5-2600 claiming over million IOPS (for single
fibre channel, two such fibre channel with more thruput than 104 FICON,
FICON is heavy duty prototol running over fibre channel that drastically
reduces native throughput).
current max configured z13 is still around $30M and 100BIPS ...
compared to e5-2600v4 around 1500BIPS (1.5TIPS, more than 10 times z13,
not strictly "small").
Before IBM got out of server business it had base list price for e5-2600
as $1815 (a little over $3/BIPS, compared to z13 now around
$300,000/BIPS). IBM also had a high-density rack holding something like
64 blades ... would now be possibly 100,000BIPS in single rack.
Large cloud operations claim they assemble their own blades for 1/3rd
the price of brand named blades ... around $1/BIPS ... possibly
contributing to IBM selling off its server business.
Given these figures, why haven't emulation and various mainframe
replacement technologies completely decimated the market for z series?
What will really start the stampede?

Clark Morris
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
typical cloud megadatacenter "server farm" will have several hundred
thousand blades.
recent posts mentioning e5-2600/mainframe comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#1 GREAT presentation on the history of the mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#57 What are mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#58 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#88 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#10 WD ships 'world's largest' 12TB HGST Ultrastar He12 Helium 7200 RPM Enterprise HDDs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#94 Migration off Mainframe to other platform
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David Crayford
2017-05-21 05:54:52 UTC
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Post by Clark Morris
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Large cloud operations claim they assemble their own blades for 1/3rd
the price of brand named blades ... around $1/BIPS ... possibly
contributing to IBM selling off its server business.
Given these figures, why haven't emulation and various mainframe
replacement technologies completely decimated the market for z series?
What will really start the stampede?
They pretty much have in city I live in. When I first moved here 20
years ago there were about 20 mainframe shops, now there are 2. The
small to medium size shops
like government have all either replaced their applications or migrated
using MicroFocus COBOL/Unikix etc. One of our old customers moved from a
z9 to a single blade
server and the word is they only run at about 15% of it's capacity
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/wa-insurance-commission-decommissions-mainframe-322780.

A few years ago HP released some benchmarks that rated one of their
blade servers at around 1,000MIPS. Going by those figures and the fact
that in 2017 those blades are twice
as fast you could spec up a 10,000 MIP system and barely half fill the
chassis. Storage vendors are flogging 32TB flash arrays and claiming 5M
IOPS, easily a match for any mainframe.

It's a risky business migrating large systems and many have failed. I
know of one bank that spent $350M trying and they failed miserably.
There are just so many complexities and it's just too hard for most.
I heard an amusing analogy that it's like trying to replace an engine on
a jumbo jet mid-flight. And the quality of service and RAS on mainframes
is still unmatched. HP are marketing converged
systems and claiming 99.999 availability which for many enterprise is
more then enough.

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-05-21 17:30:21 UTC
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Post by David Crayford
It's a risky business migrating large systems and many have failed. I
know of one bank that spent $350M trying and they failed
miserably. There are just so many complexities and it's just too hard
for most.
I heard an amusing analogy that it's like trying to replace an engine
on a jumbo jet mid-flight. And the quality of service and RAS on
mainframes is still unmatched. HP are marketing converged
systems and claiming 99.999 availability which for many enterprise is
more then enough.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#97 IBM revenue has fallen for 20 quarters -- but it used to run its business very differently
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#94 Migration off Mainframe to other platform
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017f.html#9 The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison

the initial wave was in the late 80s & early 90s, sort of the
low-hanging fruit ... and as a result the company goes into the red.
The company was being reorganized into the 13 "baby blues" in
preparation for breaking up the company. The board then brings in a new
CEO to reverse the breakup and resurrect the company.

In the mid-80s, the top IBM executives were predicting the world-wide
revenue would shortly double, mostly based on mainframe revenue and
there was big internal bldg program to double mainframe hardware
manufacturing capacity. There was also huge uptik in "fast track" MBAs
being rotated through mid-level executive positions (apparently getting
ready for doubling the workforce).

Late 80s, senior disk engineer got a talk scheduled at internal, annual
world-wide communication group conference, supposedly on 3174
performance, but opened the talk that the communication group was going
to be responsible for the demise of the disk division. The issue was the
communication group was fighting off client/server and distributed
computing trying to preserve their (emulated) dumb terminal paradigm and
install base. The disk division was seeing data fleeing the mainframe
datacenters to more distributed computing friendly platforms with drop
in disk sales. The disk division had come up with a number of solutions,
but they were constantly being vetoed by the communication group.

One of the major mainframe strongholds was the financial industry. In
the 90s they spent billions of dollars to convert legacy financial
transactions that did settlement in overnight batch window. They were
under increasing pressure from globalization that was cutting the size
of the window and increasing the work that needed to be done. They were
going to convert to straight-through processing using parallelization on
large numbers of "killer micros". However, they were using some industry
parallelization libraries that had 100 times the overhead of batch
cobol. When this was pointed out (including by me), they just ignored
the input. It wasn't until they started deploying large scale pilots
that they could see that the overhead increase totally swamped any
throughput increase they anticipated from large numbers of killer micros
... with things going down in spectacular flames. The industry
retrenches to safety of the running legacy mainframe systems.

The dependency of financial industry on legacy mainframes may have
played a major role in bringing in new CEO to resurrect the company.
The new CEO had been president of AMEX ... and about the same time that
new CEO was resurrecting IBM, AMEX spun off a major part of its
mainframe dataprocessing in the largest IPO up until that time. The
unit would roll over something like $1.5B in mainframe hardware, no
mainframe older than 18months ... by itself accounting for significant
percentage of IBM annual mainframe hardware revenue.

For ten years up through z196, IBM financials for mainframe sales showed
about the equivalent of around 100-150/yr max. configured
mainframes. This was around 5% of revenue ... but the whole mainframe
group (including software) accounted for 25% of revenue and 40% of
profit (mainframe software & services is major cash cow). Since then
hardware sales seems to have dropped to about half that (but the overall
mainframe group still accounts for significant profit).

some recent posts mentioning straight-through processing effort:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#3 We need to talk about TED
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#22 US Federal Reserve pushes ahead with Faster Payments planning
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#90 Why do bank IT systems keep failing ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014e.html#10 Can the mainframe remain relevant in the cloud and mobile era?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#69 Is end of mainframe near ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#78 Over in the Mainframe Experts Network LinkedIn group
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#71 Decimation of the valuation of IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#119 Holy Grail for parallel programming language
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#78 Is there an Inventory of the Inalled Mainframe Systems Worldwide
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015h.html#2 More "ageing mainframe" (bad) press
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016.html#25 1976 vs. 2016?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016b.html#48 Windows 10 forceful update?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#84 The mainframe is dead. Long live the mainframe!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016g.html#23 How to Fix IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016h.html#72 Why Can't You Buy z Mainframe Services from Amazon Cloud Services?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017.html#82 The ICL 2900
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017c.html#63 The ICL 2900
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#39 The Pentagon still uses computer software from 1958 to manage its contracts
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Ron Hawkins
2017-05-19 16:37:44 UTC
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Lizette,

True, but...

Have ever noticed the same search on Google can give you different results? It's a synchronization problem.

Would that work for credit card balances?

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lizette Koehler
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:39 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison

Not bad.

Google, Facebook, and Twitter own giant data centers all over the planet, and they are built with racks of commodity hardware. If thousands upon thousands of small servers networked together are good enough for Google, Facebook, and Twitter, then shouldn’t they be good enough for you? Perhaps you remember IBM’s famous commercial “The servers, they stole all our servers!“. Consolidating all of that complexity into a mainframe might be just what you need. Let’s take a look at what the mainframe really is, and consider its use cases.


I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE


The following article has been contributed by Carla Schroder, Technical Writer at the SUSE Documentation Team. The original article has been published in German at DataCenter Insider. A big “Thank You” to chief editor Ulrike Ostler for the permission to publish the article in English at the SUSE blog.

https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-comparison/


Lizette
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Mark Regan
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:30 AM
Subject: Fwd: The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison
https://dzone.com/articles/the-mainframe-versus-the-server-farm-a-comp
arison
--
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
--
Thanks,
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-05-19 17:02:54 UTC
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I'm as vocal a mainframe fundamentalist as you can find, but I'm bound by the constraints of the 'fit for purpose' principle. Theological objections to mainframe are as evil as theological objections to weenie-ware. Do what makes sense in an ecumenical spirit.

Some years ago we had a management guy who did his MBA thesis on replacing mainframe with Intel. Sadly for him, but luckily for us, he never prevailed.

On the other hand, as the cited article states, 'A mainframe is not so easy, and definitely not a do-it-yourself project.' Please, ixnay on ellingtay onnerCay. But still, point taken.

Employ MVS, Windows, xNix where they make business sense. To do otherwise is dereliction of duty.



.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ron Hawkins
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 9:35 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison

Lizette,

True, but...

Have ever noticed the same search on Google can give you different results? It's a synchronization problem.

Would that work for credit card balances?

Ron

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Lizette Koehler
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:39 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison

Not bad.

Google, Facebook, and Twitter own giant data centers all over the planet, and they are built with racks of commodity hardware. If thousands upon thousands of small servers networked together are good enough for Google, Facebook, and Twitter, then shouldn’t they be good enough for you? Perhaps you remember IBM’s famous commercial “The servers, they stole all our servers!“. Consolidating all of that complexity into a mainframe might be just what you need. Let’s take a look at what the mainframe really is, and consider its use cases.


I noticed this: Original Article was at SUSE


The following article has been contributed by Carla Schroder, Technical Writer at the SUSE Documentation Team. The original article has been published in German at DataCenter Insider. A big “Thank You” to chief editor Ulrike Ostler for the permission to publish the article in English at the SUSE blog.

https://www.suse.com/communities/blog/mainframe-versus-server-farm-comparison/


Lizette
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Mark Regan
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:30 AM
Subject: Fwd: The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison
https://dzone.com/articles/the-mainframe-versus-the-server-farm-a-comp
arison
--
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
--
Thanks,
Mark T. Regan, K8MTR
CTO1 USN/USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
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