Discussion:
Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes
(too old to reply)
Gabe Goldberg
2017-08-08 19:36:40 UTC
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Here's a query I've sent to a few individuals, and I'll send a couple
more to people outside US who I've seen post here or elsewhere. If
you're running a non-US mainframe -- or have done so, or know people who
have, or have thoughts on this -- and might chat a bit via email, please
get in touch.

As usual, if you reply to the list, please copy me directly so your note
isn't buried in the daily list digest.

Thanks!

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Researching article on international mainframes
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 14:36:50 -0400
From: Gabe Goldberg <***@gabegold.com>
To:



First, I have to call this "non-US use of mainframes" rather than
"international", since to the rest of the world, the US is "international".

My point to editor proposing this article was that it's too easy to
forget that US isn't only -- and maybe isn't main! -- user of mainframes.

I'd like to include brief non-US mainframe usage profiles plus comments
on differences in mainframe applications/issues world-wide.

So I'll appreciate whatever you can provide...

* Your thoughts on this
* Suggestions of interesting non-US sites which might be willing to
chat (via email) for brief profiles
* Pointers to mainframe user groups around the world
* Introduction to similar mainframe experts/advocates elsewhere
* Noteworthy regional variations in mainframe usage/applications/issues

Thanks!

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, ***@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0


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Gord Tomlin
2017-08-09 13:33:01 UTC
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On 2017-08-08 15:37, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
> If you're running a non-US mainframe

Hi Gabe,

To clarify: do you mean an IBM mainframe that happens to be situated
outside the US, a mainframe (non-IBM) that originated outside the US, or
both?

Also, is Canada of interest to you? I think you would find the
experiences very similar to those of US users, other than those related
to dealing with IBM.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507

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Gabe Goldberg
2017-08-10 04:21:44 UTC
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Hi, Gord -- thanks for requesting clarification!

For this article, I'm interested in IBM mainframe usage outside the US.
Canada is of interest whether or not mainframe experiences there are
similar to US, included but not limited to issues dealing with IBM. If
it's all similar to the US, I'll mention that and if it's different,
I'll explore that.

Gord Tomlin <***@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> said:

On 2017-08-08 15:37, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
> If you're running a non-US mainframe

Hi Gabe,

To clarify: do you mean an IBM mainframe that happens to be situated
outside the US, a mainframe (non-IBM) that originated outside the US, or
both?

Also, is Canada of interest to you? I think you would find the
experiences very similar to those of US users, other than those related
to dealing with IBM.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ***@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0

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ITschak Mugzach
2017-08-10 07:46:18 UTC
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if i recall correctly, `there is a brazilian startup that uses a mainframe
as a gaming server.

Itschak

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Gabe Goldberg <***@gabegold.com> wrote:

> Hi, Gord -- thanks for requesting clarification!
>
> For this article, I'm interested in IBM mainframe usage outside the US.
> Canada is of interest whether or not mainframe experiences there are
> similar to US, included but not limited to issues dealing with IBM. If it's
> all similar to the US, I'll mention that and if it's different, I'll
> explore that.
>
> Gord Tomlin <***@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> said:
>
> On 2017-08-08 15:37, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
> > If you're running a non-US mainframe
>
> Hi Gabe,
>
> To clarify: do you mean an IBM mainframe that happens to be situated
> outside the US, a mainframe (non-IBM) that originated outside the US, or
> both?
>
> Also, is Canada of interest to you? I think you would find the
> experiences very similar to those of US users, other than those related
> to dealing with IBM.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
>
> --
> Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ***@gabegold.com
> 3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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--
ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|** Automatic ISCM** (Information Security
Contiguous Monitoring) **| *

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Carlos Bodra - Pessoal
2017-08-10 12:31:02 UTC
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Yes, there was, they used a z10EC with a lot of IFL engines. This machine was installed in 2010-11 (I guess), but they shutdown it 3 years after.

Carlos Bodra
IBM System Certified System z
São Paulo - Brazil

-----Mensagem original-----
De: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] Em nome de ITschak Mugzach
Enviada em: quinta-feira, 10 de agosto de 2017 04:47
Para: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Assunto: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes

if i recall correctly, `there is a brazilian startup that uses a mainframe as a gaming server.

Itschak

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Gabe Goldberg <***@gabegold.com> wrote:

> Hi, Gord -- thanks for requesting clarification!
>
> For this article, I'm interested in IBM mainframe usage outside the US.
> Canada is of interest whether or not mainframe experiences there are
> similar to US, included but not limited to issues dealing with IBM. If
> it's all similar to the US, I'll mention that and if it's different,
> I'll explore that.
>
> Gord Tomlin <***@ACTIONSOFTWARE.COM> said:
>
> On 2017-08-08 15:37, Gabe Goldberg wrote:
> > If you're running a non-US mainframe
>
> Hi Gabe,
>
> To clarify: do you mean an IBM mainframe that happens to be situated
> outside the US, a mainframe (non-IBM) that originated outside the US,
> or both?
>
> Also, is Canada of interest to you? I think you would find the
> experiences very similar to those of US users, other than those
> related to dealing with IBM.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
>
> --
> Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ***@gabegold.com
> 3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to ***@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>



--
ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|** Automatic ISCM** (Information Security Contiguous Monitoring) **| *

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Brian Westerman
2017-08-10 08:03:34 UTC
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I have installed and supported mainframes all over the world, all over Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, Middle East, South America, USA, and even in Iceland, Greenland and the South (and almost-north) Poles and I don't really understand the question I guess. The installation and support is almost identical. The users are obviously using them differently, but in general they are quite similar. Were you expecting something "odd" with non-US mainframe users or sites? Do they speak other languages, yes, does it matter to the mainframe, not really. What differences are you looking for? I mostly see similarities, and maybe I'm just looking beyond differences to see them, but I probably need more information on what you're looking for to be able to respond better.

Brian Westerman

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Martin Packer
2017-08-10 08:18:41 UTC
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In my (also) worldwide experience the challenges my customers face are VERY
similar wherever you are.

Cheers, Martin

Sent from my iPad

> On 10 Aug 2017, at 09:04, Brian Westerman <***@SYZYGYINC.COM>
wrote:
>
> I have installed and supported mainframes all over the world, all over
Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, Middle East, South America, USA, and even
in Iceland, Greenland and the South (and almost-north) Poles and I don't
really understand the question I guess. The installation and support is
almost identical. The users are obviously using them differently, but in
general they are quite similar. Were you expecting something "odd" with
non-US mainframe users or sites? Do they speak other languages, yes, does
it matter to the mainframe, not really. What differences are you looking
for? I mostly see similarities, and maybe I'm just looking beyond
differences to see them, but I probably need more information on what
you're looking for to be able to respond better.
>
> Brian Westerman
>
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Richards, Robert B.
2017-08-10 09:28:05 UTC
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Ditto!

In my case, lots of usermods for local language stuff (Arabic).

The biggest difference is usually in hardware costs (Uplifts by EMEA, local country, even local branch).

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Martin Packer
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 4:20 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes



In my (also) worldwide experience the challenges my customers face are VERY similar wherever you are.

Cheers, Martin

Sent from my iPad

> On 10 Aug 2017, at 09:04, Brian Westerman
> <***@SYZYGYINC.COM>
wrote:
>
> I have installed and supported mainframes all over the world, all over
Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, Middle East, South America, USA, and even in Iceland, Greenland and the South (and almost-north) Poles and I don't really understand the question I guess. The installation and support is almost identical. The users are obviously using them differently, but in general they are quite similar. Were you expecting something "odd" with non-US mainframe users or sites? Do they speak other languages, yes, does it matter to the mainframe, not really. What differences are you looking for? I mostly see similarities, and maybe I'm just looking beyond differences to see them, but I probably need more information on what you're looking for to be able to respond better.
>
> Brian Westerman
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>email to ***@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>Unless stated otherwise above:
IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598.
Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU


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Bruce Hewson
2017-08-11 04:55:31 UTC
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Hello Gabe,

some points to check out. I am based in Singapore, and have been here for the last 20 years supporting a large mainframe datacenter.

o. Daylight Savings Time changes - we don't do that at the system level. Any country that does have DST changes must have supporting code in application.

o. Fonts etc - must be aware of the requirements of the various ASIAN languages, and be able to provide suitable fonts and code translations.

o. The effects of different laws in different countries, and ensuring the data center complies with all. Both in program code, and personal behavior.

o. Surviving time zone differences between Singapore and all other places.

o. Hardware/software - we get very good support.

o. Patience is required when dealing with users - different language skills, different cultural impacts, varying knowledge levels.

o. Crypto support - US export laws can be an issue.


Regards
Bruce

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Timothy Sipples
2017-08-11 05:04:12 UTC
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I'm largely in agreement with Brian and Martin, although I can think of
some more country-specific differences, in no particular order:

1. Encryption still has some "odd" national boundaries.

2. Network reach and quality still vary a lot, and thus branch/channel
architectures vary to some extent. Some of the countries in Africa, for
example, are struggling with network infrastructure.

3. The geographic risks are different when considering, and reconsidering,
disaster recovery. Many clients in Japan, for example, do not view two data
centers separated by a "metro" distance to be adequate, primarily because
of earthquake risks.

4. I recall a couple clients asking if IBM Z machines could be placed on
moving (or at least movable) vehicles. Short answer: yes. You might be able
to guess what they were thinking. It was/is logical.

5. There are a few internationally embargoed countries.

6. There are some brand new mainframe countries from time to time.

7. Each country has a unique history, culture, business climate, and other
factors that have some impact on the IT sector and talent development.

8. Regulations vary, and some regulations can have significant impact on
IT. Europe's GDPR initiative is a recent, topical example.

9. Some countries have "odd" deadlines that might, for example, have some
"odd" effects on batch workload patterns.

10. Some countries have crazy high peaks that can influence IT, such as
Black Friday for the U.S. retail industry and Lunar New Year in many
countries.

11. Forced antitrust-related splits, forced mergers (e.g. "bad bank"
liquidations), Brexit, and other such phenomena can impact IT in
interesting ways.

12. A few countries use different calendars, and there are sometimes
timezone changes and such oddities that have mainframe impact, at least if
you run your mainframe on local time instead of UTC. (Not necessarily a
good idea.)

13. Currency changes can have mainframe impact, as the introduction of the
euro did many years ago.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM z Systems, AP/GCG/MEA
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Brian Westerman
2017-08-11 09:04:52 UTC
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I agree, but it's important to note that there are far more similarities than differences. Most of the differences you see between country sites are the same thing you would see different between two sites within the USA.

You can have a site in Arizona (which doesn't do daylight savings) and one in Alaska that are basically identical, and two others in the same places that are worlds apart because of their own local "mods". The location doesn't govern the differences for the most part, it's more a blend of the people who worked on those systems in the past and how they approached "getting things done".

The fact that they might be in different states or countries is not the deciding factor for the most part of their differences or similarities. If someone is running vanilla CICS/TS V5.2 in Texas, it's probably going to be identical, or close to it, to the one someone is running in Dubai.

There are lots of cultural differences, but if you ask data center support people in Maine about dealing with data center support in Dallas, you will find that they feel they are on different planets.

I'm not trying to say there are no differences due to the specific country, but there are far more similarities. Also, two sites in the same foreign country, for instance France, can be totally dissimilar, or could be twins, the same as any two other sites.

Maybe it's because I have see so many (literally) hundreds of sites, that I tend to always see the similarities. The differences between any two sites will always be there, whether they are 2 miles or 12,000 miles apart. I think that as far as IBM mainframes are concerned, aside from language, the country of residence is almost irrelevant. (just my opinion, feel free to disagree)

Brian

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Gabe Goldberg
2017-08-11 13:30:25 UTC
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I didn't have an answer in mind for the question. If the only differences are obvious ones between countries, I'll profile the different uses of mainframes you mention, since sometimes non-US installations don't get much US visibility. But if there ARE country- or region-based variations (staffing, functions, features, products, services, availabilities, whatever) those are of interest too.

Mostly joking, but for example, are different system colors available in different places? More seriously, you mentioned languages -- so how much documentation is available in various languages, vs. people using English materials worldwide? Similarly, how fluent are operating systems, other IBM products, and ISV offerings in various languages? Are there language issues? Or is English mostly used, same as commonly for Air Traffic Control.

Brian Westerman<***@SYZYGYINC.COM> said:

I have installed and supported mainframes all over the world, all over Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, Middle East, South America, USA, and even in Iceland, Greenland and the South (and almost-north) Poles and I don't really understand the question I guess. The installation and support is almost identical. The users are obviously using them differently, but in general they are quite similar. Were you expecting something "odd" with non-US mainframe users or sites? Do they speak other languages, yes, does it matter to the mainframe, not really. What differences are you looking for? I mostly see similarities, and maybe I'm just looking beyond differences to see them, but I probably need more information on what you're looking for to be able to respond better.

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ***@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0


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David Boyes
2017-08-11 21:00:33 UTC
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That Brazilian mainframe shop was the poster child for the zBX and the Cell blade. I don’t think it’s very active at this point – at least IBM hasn’t talked about it for years.

FWIW, the one comment I’d contribute is the decline of NLS language messages and documentation. In most cases, English and Japanese Kanji are the only supported languages any more – all the hooks and libraries to display it are still there, but the translated text isn’t. Even the uppercase English only variant for messages has been dropped.

This can be a serious barrier to adoption – if you have to read docs in a foreign language to explain a complex technical topic, that can be a pretty steep hurdle, and the Japanese market can be very sensitive to that for various past cultural reasons. When I worked with Fuji Xerox, they had a lot of people supporting that to stay competitive in that market. There’s also been some discussion of the EU dropping English as one of the formally accepted EU languages with Brexit, so that may be an issue if/when it actually happens.


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Brian Westerman
2017-08-12 21:42:58 UTC
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Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally go to the sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings that (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak English as well (or better) than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should mention it. The few discussions I have had about the subject are that it's no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. I have been told that having the manuals in digital format makes it VERY easy to cut and paste the text into their translation program of choice. It's only the English idioms and jokes that give them problems, and IBM books are any BUT funny.

The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages) seems to be more because of lack of desire on the part of the sites rather than the vendors not creating the option(s).

Our automation products used to have the option of (I think) 12 languages for the messages and manuals, but I can't even remember the last time someone asked for a local language message module. With our last two versions we elected to remove most of the messages (almost) completely. I think we still might have some translated manuals, but that's about it.

Brian

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Farley, Peter x23353
2017-08-12 21:53:04 UTC
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PMJFI here, but don't the laws in Canada require at least one alternate language message set (French) if you do any business there?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Westerman
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:44 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes

Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally go to the sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings that (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak English as well (or better) than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should mention it. The few discussions I have had about the subject are that it's no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. I have been told that having the manuals in digital format makes it VERY easy to cut and paste the text into their translation program of choice. It's only the English idioms and jokes that give them problems, and IBM books are any BUT funny.

The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages) seems to be more because of lack of desire on the part of the sites rather than the vendors not creating the option(s).

Our automation products used to have the option of (I think) 12 languages for the messages and manuals, but I can't even remember the last time someone asked for a local language message module. With our last two versions we elected to remove most of the messages (almost) completely. I think we still might have some translated manuals, but that's about it.

Brian
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Tony Harminc
2017-08-15 17:40:50 UTC
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On 12 August 2017 at 17:54, Farley, Peter x23353 <
***@broadridge.com> wrote:

> PMJFI here, but don't the laws in Canada require at least one alternate
> language message set (French) if you do any business there?
>

In a word, no. There are long standing dual-language requirements at the
federal level for things like consumer product packaging (hence the
Canadian English phrase "cereal box French" to describe those English
speakers whose competence in French comes from reading the French side of
the corn flakes box at breakfast), and for government services, which these
days of course includes websites and such. But these requirements don't
generally apply to non consumer products like a mainframe OS. For that
matter in the days of packaged Windows software, I have more than once seen
dual-language labelling on the box, but with a disclaimer that the software
itself runs in English only!

The province of Quebec has local requirements for a lot of things to do
with the French language, but it's a small enough market that they are not
in a position to dictate everything to every manufacturer on the planet.
But in any procurement by governments, federal or provincial, there is
likely to be a contractual rather than legislated requirement for bi- or
multi- (for instance, there are many more Chinese speakers living in
Toronto than French speakers) lingual support , though perhaps only in the
end-user part of a product.

As an ISV with z/OS customers in Quebec, I have seen no expectation even in
government that we offer messages or documentation in French. Having the
ability to provide support in French is seen as a bonus, but even that
isn't usually a requirement. On the other hand there is doubtless some
pressure, implicit or explicit, to buy preferentially from local Quebec
suppliers where they are available.

Tony H.

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Charles Mills
2017-08-12 22:37:47 UTC
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I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Westerman
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:44 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes

Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally go to the sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings that (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak English as well (or better) than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should mention it. The few discussions I have had about the subject are that it's no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. I have been told that having the manuals in digital format makes it VERY easy to cut and paste the text into their translation program of choice. It's only the English idioms and jokes that give them problems, and IBM books are any BUT funny.

The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages) seems to be more because of lack of desire on the part of the sites rather than the vendors not creating the option(s).

Our automation products used to have the option of (I think) 12 languages for the messages and manuals, but I can't even remember the last time someone asked for a local language message module. With our last two versions we elected to remove most of the messages (almost) completely. I think we still might have some translated manuals, but that's about it.

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Bernd Oppolzer
2017-08-12 22:52:22 UTC
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True. We had some manuals translated in German (PL/1, IIRC),
where the translation was so bad that it was almost unusable.
It turned out that the translation had been done by people
who had no understanding of the topic (PL/1, programming language).
This was in the 1980s, BTW. We used english manuals from then on,
exclusively. OTOH, there were some really good translations of the
Principles of Operation; I recall having a German version from the
43xx period. It always depends if the translator knows what he/she
is talking about.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 13.08.2017 um 00:38 schrieb Charles Mills:
> I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."
>
> Charles
>
>

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Roger Bolan
2017-08-13 01:08:27 UTC
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That's very true and it works in the other direction too. We worked on a
product that started out in Japan and the manual for it had been
translated into English by someone in Japan. It was completely unusable .
We had to start over from scratch and rewrite the manual in English.

On Aug 12, 2017 4:39 PM, "Charles Mills" <***@mcn.org> wrote:

> I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are
> used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you
> translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea
> what you are trying to say."
>
> Charles
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:44 PM
> To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes
>
> Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect
> to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally go to the
> sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings that
> (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak English as well (or better)
> than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should
> mention it. The few discussions I have had about the subject are that it's
> no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. I
> have been told that having the manuals in digital format makes it VERY
> easy to cut and paste the text into their translation program of choice.
> It's only the English idioms and jokes that give them problems, and IBM
> books are any BUT funny.
>
> The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages)
> seems to be more because of lack of desire on the part of the sites rather
> than the vendors not creating the option(s).
>
> Our automation products used to have the option of (I think) 12 languages
> for the messages and manuals, but I can't even remember the last time
> someone asked for a local language message module. With our last two
> versions we elected to remove most of the messages (almost) completely. I
> think we still might have some translated manuals, but that's about it.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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scott Ford
2017-08-13 01:21:29 UTC
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I worked in Mexico saw CICS maps translated into Spanish.
Lived and worked for a large US/International Co. and at the Data Center in
Switzerland we spoke in Franlish ..Swiss French and English and keyboards
were in several place Swiss French. Data Center had 33 nationalities
working together.
It was quite an adventure ..


Scott

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 9:09 PM Roger Bolan <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's very true and it works in the other direction too. We worked on a
> product that started out in Japan and the manual for it had been
> translated into English by someone in Japan. It was completely unusable .
> We had to start over from scratch and rewrite the manual in English.
>
> On Aug 12, 2017 4:39 PM, "Charles Mills" <***@mcn.org> wrote:
>
> > I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are
> > used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you
> > translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea
> > what you are trying to say."
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> > Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 5:44 PM
> > To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes
> >
> > Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect
> > to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally go to the
> > sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings
> that
> > (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak English as well (or
> better)
> > than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should
> > mention it. The few discussions I have had about the subject are that
> it's
> > no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. I
> > have been told that having the manuals in digital format makes it VERY
> > easy to cut and paste the text into their translation program of choice.
> > It's only the English idioms and jokes that give them problems, and IBM
> > books are any BUT funny.
> >
> > The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages)
> > seems to be more because of lack of desire on the part of the sites
> rather
> > than the vendors not creating the option(s).
> >
> > Our automation products used to have the option of (I think) 12 languages
> > for the messages and manuals, but I can't even remember the last time
> > someone asked for a local language message module. With our last two
> > versions we elected to remove most of the messages (almost) completely.
> I
> > think we still might have some translated manuals, but that's about it.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to ***@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
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Edward Gould
2017-08-13 17:52:57 UTC
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> On Aug 12, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Charles Mills <***@MCN.ORG> wrote:
>
> I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."
>
> Charles

Charles,

The Japanese never learned that lesson. To this day I cannot figure out how to change one of the clock in the car.

Ed


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scott Ford
2017-08-13 19:18:52 UTC
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Amen to that Ed


On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 1:54 PM Edward Gould <***@comcast.net>
wrote:

> > On Aug 12, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Charles Mills <***@MCN.ORG> wrote:
> >
> > I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are
> used to technical materials in English and know what they mean. If you
> translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea
> what you are trying to say."
> >
> > Charles
>
> Charles,
>
> The Japanese never learned that lesson. To this day I cannot figure out
> how to change one of the clock in the car.
>
> Ed
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
--
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IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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David Boyes
2017-08-13 14:34:16 UTC
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> Actually, even with the foreign sites, I believe that most of them elect to not run the translated messages options. I don't normally
> go to the sites (actually I never go there), but it seems to me in the meetings that (at least the people I deal with) seem to speak
> English as well (or better) than I do. In fact, they seem to take it as high praise if I should mention it. The few discussions I have
> had about the subject are that it's no harder to learn English for manual reading than any other language. [...snip…]
> The decline in alternate language options though (at least for messages) seems to be more because of lack of desire on
> the part of the sites rather than the vendors not creating the option(s).

It has a lot to do with the history of the people involved – the people most sensitive to this issue tend to have long histories of not being permitted to use their indigenous languages, and quietly resent being told that the fiat language is the only one that matters even if they are perfectly capable of doing their jobs in the fiat language. It’s a matter of pride – it doesn’t have a rational basis, but bien, tu l'as maintenant. :) I dealt with a customer that was maintaining a Aranese (a dialect used in Catalonia) copy of the IBM message repository for just this reason, and there are still lots of sites in France and Quebec that insist on messages and docs in French.

It also has a lot to do with the cost of translating the messages – nobody wants to pay extra for it. I find it interesting that (at least for VM) the last non-English options offered were German, Japanese and uppercase English (commonly used to deal with Hebrew and Russian conventions for text mapping and display) which map to the largest concentrations of non-US mainframe users. IBM and DEC (and to some extent, HP by way of inheriting the DEC user base as well as their own user base) did a better than average job here, but it still needs work. (If you want to find out how much impact this can be, enable Mandarin support in your copy of Windows and watch the bloat -- oink).
I think there’s also a question of having predictable patterns for automation packages – many explicitly set AMENG as the language so you don’t have to replicate a bunch of code for matching patterns.

It’s probably less relevant now than it was when there were lots of interactive users, but I have heard non-US users comment on it as a barrier that needed to be overcome.


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David Boyes
2017-08-13 14:59:18 UTC
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> I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are used to technical materials in English and know
> what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."

Which only shows how prevalent really rotten translations done by people who don’t understand the material are. Il traduttore è un traditore, as the Italians would say.

The translation people that Fuji Xerox had were really good (the German version of the Alto and D-machine docs were both readable and understandable), but I think Epson takes the prize for the manual for the MX80 printer. I teach technical writing occasionally, and that 25+ year old manual is still the one I use examples from (IBM ID materials are 2nd in line – thanks, IBM).

Translation lives and dies by how well you understand what the author was originally intending to say, which is why machine translation – and translation done by the lowest bidder -- is still so poor. You get what you pay for.



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scott Ford
2017-08-13 17:20:18 UTC
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David,

I had to learn French just work and do everyday functions in Switzerland,
canton de Vaud.
But the company I worked for realized this an proved free French lessons
which helped a
Great deal.

Scott


On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:00 AM David Boyes <***@sinenomine.net> wrote:

> > I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are
> used to technical materials in English and know
> > what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't
> recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."
>
> Which only shows how prevalent really rotten translations done by people
> who don’t understand the material are. Il traduttore è un traditore, as the
> Italians would say.
>
> The translation people that Fuji Xerox had were really good (the German
> version of the Alto and D-machine docs were both readable and
> understandable), but I think Epson takes the prize for the manual for the
> MX80 printer. I teach technical writing occasionally, and that 25+ year
> old manual is still the one I use examples from (IBM ID materials are 2nd
> in line – thanks, IBM).
>
> Translation lives and dies by how well you understand what the author was
> originally intending to say, which is why machine translation – and
> translation done by the lowest bidder -- is still so poor. You get what you
> pay for.
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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scott Ford
2017-08-13 17:43:58 UTC
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This exists in differences between UK English and , what they call you
speak 'American', which is to say there is a difference.

Scott

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 1:21 PM scott Ford <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> David,
>
> I had to learn French just work and do everyday functions in Switzerland,
> canton de Vaud.
> But the company I worked for realized this an proved free French lessons
> which helped a
> Great deal.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:00 AM David Boyes <***@sinenomine.net>
> wrote:
>
>> > I once had a customer say "PLEASE DON'T translate your manuals. We are
>> used to technical materials in English and know
>> > what they mean. If you translate it into [French? German? I don't
>> recall] we will have no idea what you are trying to say."
>>
>> Which only shows how prevalent really rotten translations done by people
>> who don’t understand the material are. Il traduttore è un traditore, as the
>> Italians would say.
>>
>> The translation people that Fuji Xerox had were really good (the German
>> version of the Alto and D-machine docs were both readable and
>> understandable), but I think Epson takes the prize for the manual for the
>> MX80 printer. I teach technical writing occasionally, and that 25+ year
>> old manual is still the one I use examples from (IBM ID materials are 2nd
>> in line – thanks, IBM).
>>
>> Translation lives and dies by how well you understand what the author was
>> originally intending to say, which is why machine translation – and
>> translation done by the lowest bidder -- is still so poor. You get what you
>> pay for.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to ***@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
> --
> Scott Ford
> IDMWORKS
> z/OS Development
>
--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Edward Gould
2017-08-13 20:23:27 UTC
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> On Aug 13, 2017, at 12:44 PM, scott Ford <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> This exists in differences between UK English and , what they call you
> speak 'American', which is to say there is a difference.
>
> Scott
Scott:
About 30 years ago we were looking at up grading to MVS from VS1. The additional cost of ISPF and a security system and a few other products broke the budget.
We were told we had to do a justification for ISPF and the other add ons.
We spent about three weeks writing the justification up. We all read it and OK’d the presentation.
We presented it about 10 AM to the VP.
About a half hour later the VP came by and tossed the justification on the desk and said “You used the British spelling, change it to the American”
We were aghast as we didn’t do that. Each of us took a part of it and did a really hard spell check on the pages we each had.
We narrowed it down to one word (long since forgotten). We decided to change it and drop it back on the VP’s desk.
The budgeting process is difficult to describe here, but I think a short description would be, any additional money we had to ask for was taken out of the profits of other companies.
The President took our estimate and massaged it into the budget. Since we were not privy to what went on at these meetings, the only option was to wait.
Three weeks later the VP called us in and said the budget had been approved and we went ahead and ordered MVS.
We got the conversion done, and everyone was happy, for a while. Then as predicted, we were paging like crazy during the day (because of TSO). Response time was pretty bad.
The VP wanted to know what we had to do to fix it and we looked at him and asked if he had read the final page of the proposal, he said yes. I piped up and said that we would very soon need to order more memory.
He was really mad and walked out the door. We were asked what it would cost to add more memory, and we looked it up and asked him if this was for all the machines and he said yes.
So the President had to go back to the “owners” and ask them for additional money for the upgrades. We got the money.
Ed

>
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 1:21 PM scott Ford <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I had to learn French just work and do everyday functions in Switzerland,
>> canton de Vaud.
>> But the company I worked for realized this an proved free French lessons
>> which helped a
>> Great deal.
>>
>> Scott
>>


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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-08-15 18:31:15 UTC
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Somewhat afield, I heard this morning that California and Quebec are teaming up on Cap and Trade. This requires a lot of very precise dual language legalese to make it work. Unfortunately, cereal boxes here may or may not contain a smattering of Spanish, but virtually no French. Unless you count the word 'calorie'. ;-)

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2017 10:42 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Researching Destination z article on non-US mainframes

On 12 August 2017 at 17:54, Farley, Peter x23353 < ***@broadridge.com> wrote:

> PMJFI here, but don't the laws in Canada require at least one
> alternate language message set (French) if you do any business there?
>

In a word, no. There are long standing dual-language requirements at the federal level for things like consumer product packaging (hence the Canadian English phrase "cereal box French" to describe those English speakers whose competence in French comes from reading the French side of the corn flakes box at breakfast), and for government services, which these days of course includes websites and such. But these requirements don't generally apply to non consumer products like a mainframe OS. For that matter in the days of packaged Windows software, I have more than once seen dual-language labelling on the box, but with a disclaimer that the software itself runs in English only!

The province of Quebec has local requirements for a lot of things to do with the French language, but it's a small enough market that they are not in a position to dictate everything to every manufacturer on the planet.
But in any procurement by governments, federal or provincial, there is likely to be a contractual rather than legislated requirement for bi- or
multi- (for instance, there are many more Chinese speakers living in Toronto than French speakers) lingual support , though perhaps only in the end-user part of a product.

As an ISV with z/OS customers in Quebec, I have seen no expectation even in government that we offer messages or documentation in French. Having the ability to provide support in French is seen as a bonus, but even that isn't usually a requirement. On the other hand there is doubtless some pressure, implicit or explicit, to buy preferentially from local Quebec suppliers where they are available.

Tony H.


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