Discussion:
1TB EAV Support
(too old to reply)
Edward Jaffe
2011-10-05 00:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Anyone running this yet?

We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but haven't upgraded
the DS8100 hardware yet.

Looks like fun! 8-)

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
310-338-0400 x318
***@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Mike Schwab
2011-10-05 00:58:56 UTC
Permalink
That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Edward Jaffe
<***@phoenixsoftware.com> wrote:
> Anyone running this yet?
>
> We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but haven't
> upgraded the DS8100 hardware yet.
>
> Looks like fun! 8-)
>
> --
> Edward E Jaffe
> Phoenix Software International, Inc
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> 310-338-0400 x318
> ***@phoenixsoftware.com
> http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Shane
2011-10-05 02:15:59 UTC
Permalink
LOL.
I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.

Shock and awe from the assembled crowd .... :0)

Shane ...

On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:

> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Edward Jaffe wrote:

> > Anyone running this yet?
> >
> > We have the necessary PTFs installed on our z/OS systems, but
> > haven't upgraded the DS8100 hardware yet.
> >
> > Looks like fun! 8-)

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Mike Schwab
2011-10-05 04:33:05 UTC
Permalink
We have about 11 TB on 18 TB of volumes for 11 LPars.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Shane <ibm-***@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> LOL.
> I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
>
> Shock and awe from the assembled crowd ....  :0)
>
> Shane ...
>
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:
>
>> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Chase, John
2011-10-05 12:08:32 UTC
Permalink
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shane
>
> LOL.
> I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
>
> Shock and awe from the assembled crowd .... :0)

And today I have a 2Tb drive (3.5") on my "Photoshop" PC. :-)

-jc-

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Vernooij, CP - SPLXM
2011-10-05 07:18:01 UTC
Permalink
"Mike Schwab" <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote in message news:<***@mail.gmail.com>...
> We have about 11 TB on 18 TB of volumes for 11 LPars.
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Shane <ibm-***@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> > LOL.
> > I remember going to a Share/Guide presentation years ago by a bod from
> > one of Australias larger sites. The talk was how they managed their
> > humongous DASD farm that had recently passed the Terabyte frontier.
> >
> > Shock and awe from the assembled crowd ....  :0)
> >
> > Shane ...
> >
> > On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:55:17 -0500 Mike Schwab wrote:
> >
> >> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
> --

That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2 years ago. What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

Kees.
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R.S.
2011-10-05 15:25:42 UTC
Permalink
W dniu 2011-10-05 09:14, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM pisze:
[...]

>>>> That would hold all data for 4 of our LPARS.
>> --
>
> That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2 years ago. What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

*Fortunately* IBM has a competition in that area. :-)
And I avoid to compare JBOD to enterprise DASD box.
The CPC, price per MIPS - that's what I worry about :-(

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


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Roger Bowler
2011-10-05 11:04:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:14:48 +0200, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM <***@KLM.COM> wrote:

>That would do for my data on my 1TB at home, for which I paid over Eur 100,= 2 years ago.
>What does IBM charge for 1TB these days?

About 40000 Euros (yes, that's 400 times what you paid for your home 1TB!)

Of course, the cabinet is about 400 times the size :-)

Roger Bowler

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Timothy Sipples
2011-10-06 06:12:00 UTC
Permalink
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1

[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]

Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
extremely competitive and has been for decades.

This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?

The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
wouldn't be mainframes.

But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.

There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.

As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
when I'm controversial.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
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Timothy Sipples
2011-10-06 06:27:35 UTC
Permalink
How about simply allowing the customer/client installing the program to
configure a target URL to a Web page that provides that information (and
more)? One option is the z/OS Management Facility, which is available at no
additional charge to every z/OS licensee. The z/OS MF's performance section
can provide that information. (There are also REST APIs to perform tasks
programmatically.) More information here:

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zosmf/vxrx/index.jsp

Or, in the alternative, the installer could choose to configure a URL
pointing to a Tivoli Web page (e.g. Tivoli Business Service Manager),
OMEGAMON, or your other favorite Web page. In other words, why put the
burden on the application developer to reinvent something (poorly) that
already exists (much better) in some fashion in 99.9+ percent of mainframe
installations?

Every non-trivial application has certain prerequisites, regardless of
platform. So I see no distinction there.

It'd be nice, on every platform, to include some sort of advisory message
for the user. Something like, "Caution: While this information is available
to you, correct interpretation of this information requires expertise.
Please consult with your system administrators for assistance in
interpreting this information."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
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Timothy Sipples
2011-10-06 06:59:45 UTC
Permalink
I have to respond to one point Roger Bowler made (again).

Roger, it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without
either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting
mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting
A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM
didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S.
pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two. (Hint: Joe Clabby narrows
it down.) Just as IBM also didn't say which z890 configuration started at
under $100,000 when that model was announced, but there were only the same
two starting configurations then, too.

Your repeating your false assertion (a $75K mainframe without
customer-usable CPU capacity) in multiple forums doesn't make your
assertion any more correct. (LinkedIn, too? Seriously?) Your assertion is
just flat out false and disparaging. As I mentioned elsewhere, the only
people upset that IBM has reduced starting prices for its z114 mainframes
by 25% (fact!) are IBM's competitors. Everyone else is thrilled. And the
only person who doubts this earth is round is you.

If you've got hard evidence that IBM doesn't know its own pricing, put up.
If you don't, it's long past time you ceased.

(Sorry for that digression, folks.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
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Timothy Sipples
2011-10-06 07:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Mainframe economics continue to improve, and it's important to take
advantage of that if you can, when you can.

With respect to the z10 BC and its IFLs, let's consider a
back-of-the-envelope exercise for WebSphere Application Server workloads.
I'm going to use IBM's LSPR PCI metric as a proxy for relative performance.
(It's a pretty good one.) If you have three IFLs (only), that's the rough
equivalent of a Z03 capacity setting, which has a PCI of 1777. If WebSphere
Application Server is configured in such a way to be capable of running on
all three IFLs, you would need to license 360 Processor Value Units (PVUs)
worth of WebSphere (120 PVUs per z10 IFL). Thus you get about 4.94 PCIs per
PVU -- that's a metric of software license efficiency, similar to
kilometers per gallon.

Now, let's re-run this calculation for a z114. Three IFLs on that machine
would be roughly equivalent to a PCI of 2026. Also, z114 IFLs require only
100 PVUs each. So, taking 2026 and dividing by 300, you get about 6.75.
That's an almost 37% improvement in performance per dollar of software
licensing! That's huge.

That doesn't count the performance improvements made in newer software
releases, which are also huge. Even when you keep the version levels the
same, if you can get to the latest JVM (in WAS 8) you'll find some
exploitation of instructions found only in z196/z114. So I think it's fair
to say that 37% improvement is more like a floor and less like a ceiling in
this example. And this is just looking at the IBM software licensing, which
is just a piece of the financial picture -- and probably not the most
significant piece here. But it is an interesting piece.

Also, in general, data centers aren't getting less full nor is expanding
them (or building new ones) getting any cheaper.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
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Timothy Sipples
2011-10-06 07:19:08 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, I posted my thoughts on Steve Jobs's passing here:

http://mainframe.typepad.com/blog/2011/10/in-memoriam-steve-jobs.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com

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Richards, Robert B.
2011-10-06 08:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Nice Timothy, very nice!

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Timothy Sipples
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 3:16 AM
To: IBM-***@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Check out Apple says Steve Jobs has died - The Washington Post

FWIW, I posted my thoughts on Steve Jobs's passing here:

http://mainframe.typepad.com/blog/2011/10/in-memoriam-steve-jobs.html

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Jim Marshall
2011-10-06 11:59:44 UTC
Permalink
How many Virtual Linux Servers per IFL........Hmmmmm with the usual answer it "it depends". Today I am running one z9BC IFL and have up 55+ Virtual Linux Servers. That is, 3 LPARS (BUILD, TEST, & Prod). As to what they do is more relevant than the quantity. Have 2 production DB2 LUW servers, 2 production Oracles, 2 Production Websphere Application Servers, Tivoli TAMS & WebSeal, and a number of Virtual Firewalls to implement Defense in Depth. Now we have duplicated those is the TEST/UAT LPAR and then we have to build all of it.

In general when we brought up zLinux back in 2004-5 or so, we found if you had z/OS trained people managing things with not Linux experience, it all got built very inefficiently. Everytime performance got bad they would add memory to improve things and it just made it worse. Then there was the z/VM aspect where historically speaking it was 2 different cultures. One needed to tune z/VM first and then move down to the Linux machines.

So again, to me, it depends on what you are asking these Virtual Linux servers to do would be important in understanding how many one can usually run in an IFL.

jim

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Andreas F. Geissbuehler
2011-10-06 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
LOL x 1024 !!

One day in 1970 our boss had GIGA news and had to explain 1 giga = 1'024 mega > 1 million kilobytes... awsome !!

FYI: Canadian National Railways' TRACS upgrade to 8 banks of 2314's, 9 spindles each, at most 8 of which could be 'online' and at least 1 had to be 'offlline'. We had approx. 100+ '2316 disk packs' at 29 megabytes each. Thus, more than 2GB of 'n' GB of data could be 'mounted and ready' and nearly 2GB 'online' at any time (great feature for year-ends, SYSGEN's).

Andreas F. Geissbuehler
AFG Consultants Inc.
http://www.afgc-inc.com/

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Roger Bowler
2011-10-07 12:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Timothy Sipples wrote:
> it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without
> either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting
> mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting
> A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM
> didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S.
> pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two.

Hmm. Sounds awfully like you don't know the answer either. I'm asking for facts, not guesses.

I'll repeat the question: what is the exact configuration of the sub-$75,000 z114?

How many CPs, how many IFLs, how much memory, how many FICON channels, and how many OSA cards are included in this price? It surely can't be that hard to answer.

Regards,
Roger Bowler



------------Original message---------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
From: ***@US.IBM.COM (Timothy Sipples)
Date: 5 Oct 2011 23:59:45 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 6 2011 8:59 am
Subject: Re: ZDNET actually says something nice about IBM LINUX

I have to respond to one point Roger Bowler made (again).

Roger, it's impossible to configure a z114 at capacity setting A00 without
either one IFL or one ICF -- and you probably know better. IBM's starting
mainframe configuration is either a single IFL model or a capacity setting
A01 model. Yes, it's one of those two (not the ICF-only model). No, IBM
didn't say which of those two configurations starts at under $75,000 (U.S.
pricing), but I assure you it's one of those two. (Hint: Joe Clabby narrows
it down.) Just as IBM also didn't say which z890 configuration started at
under $100,000 when that model was announced, but there were only the same
two starting configurations then, too.


Your repeating your false assertion (a $75K mainframe without
customer-usable CPU capacity) in multiple forums doesn't make your
assertion any more correct. (LinkedIn, too? Seriously?) Your assertion is
just flat out false and disparaging. As I mentioned elsewhere, the only
people upset that IBM has reduced starting prices for its z114 mainframes
by 25% (fact!) are IBM's competitors. Everyone else is thrilled. And the
only person who doubts this earth is round is you.


If you've got hard evidence that IBM doesn't know its own pricing, put up.
If you don't, it's long past time you ceased.


(Sorry for that digression, folks.)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Roger Bowler
2011-10-07 12:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Timothy Sipples wrote:
> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
> you, IBM!

Timothy,

Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196 without a tape drive?

Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?

Thanks,
Roger Bowler



--------------Original message--------------
If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:

http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1


[A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]


Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
extremely competitive and has been for decades.


This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?


The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
wouldn't be mainframes.


But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.


There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
"better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
(legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.


As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
when I'm controversial.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
Timothy Sipples
Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Lim Ming Liang
2011-10-07 13:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>> you, IBM!
> Timothy,
>
> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196 without a tape drive?
>
> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?
>
> Thanks,
> Roger Bowler
>
>
>
> --------------Original message--------------
> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>
> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>
>
> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>
>
> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>
>
> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>
>
> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
> wouldn't be mainframes.
>
>
> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>
>
> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>
>
> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
> when I'm controversial.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
> Timothy Sipples
> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>

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R.S.
2011-10-07 13:35:38 UTC
Permalink
W dniu 2011-10-07 15:10, Lim Ming Liang pisze:
> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
> Regards Lim ML

In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial
installation.

<joke mode>
Maybe IBM believes that such case - new z/OS customer and no plans to
use tapes is so rare that they deliver/rent some tape drive for free...
</joke mode>


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
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This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

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Lim Ming Liang
2011-10-07 14:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Ah, yes, Roger's "a greenfield site" means a brand new start-up site, I
presumed.
Sorry, I did not catch those American English.
Anyone still remember the video clip of "Tape is Dead" posted in one of
the mainframe forums ? I really enjoyed that.:-D
Regards Lim ML

On 07/10/11 9:32 PM, R.S. wrote:
> W dniu 2011-10-07 15:10, Lim Ming Liang pisze:
>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>> DVDs.
>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>> Regards Lim ML
>
> In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial
> installation.
>
> <joke mode>
> Maybe IBM believes that such case - new z/OS customer and no plans to
> use tapes is so rare that they deliver/rent some tape drive for free...
> </joke mode>
>
>

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shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)
2011-10-07 17:09:08 UTC
Permalink
In <***@bremultibank.com.pl>, on 10/07/2011
at 03:32 PM, "R.S." <***@BREMULTIBANK.COM.PL> said:

>In simple words, a *new* z/OS customer still needs a tape for initial
> installation.

The words may be simple, but they're also false and not what the OP
wrote.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Mike Myers
2011-10-07 16:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Lim:

I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?

Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
> Regards Lim ML
>
> On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
>> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>>> you, IBM!
>> Timothy,
>>
>> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield
>> site z196 without a tape drive?
>>
>> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590
>> tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has
>> changed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roger Bowler
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------Original message--------------
>> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
>> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do
>> that.
>> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>>
>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>>
>>
>> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to
>> have
>> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>>
>>
>> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good
>> idea.
>> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously
>> designed and
>> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition
>> of the
>> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
>> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices
>> -- but
>> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
>> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage
>> market is
>> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>>
>>
>> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it.
>> "But I
>> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can
>> even
>> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
>> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
>> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear
>> power
>> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic
>> equipment.
>> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>>
>>
>> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting
>> with
>> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They
>> have
>> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
>> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
>> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know
>> it's
>> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
>> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent
>> them.
>> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe
>> they
>> wouldn't be mainframes.
>>
>>
>> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things,
>> go for
>> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer
>> function)
>> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>>
>>
>> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
>> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's
>> stipulate
>> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
>> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
>> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in
>> other
>> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends,
>> but
>> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>>
>>
>> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself,
>> especially
>> when I'm controversial.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
>>
>> Timothy Sipples
>> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
>> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>

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Lim Ming Liang
2011-10-08 03:37:22 UTC
Permalink
I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a
?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs, at
the Driver system.
When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to
3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.
Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:
> Lim:
>
> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
> DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>
> Mike Myers
>
> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>> DVDs.
>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>> Regards Lim ML
>>
>> On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
>>> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>>>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>>>> you, IBM!
>>> Timothy,
>>>
>>> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield
>>> site z196 without a tape drive?
>>>
>>> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590
>>> tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has
>>> changed?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roger Bowler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------Original message--------------
>>> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go
>>> for
>>> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do
>>> that.
>>> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>>>
>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>>>
>>>
>>> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>>> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense
>>> to have
>>> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a
>>> good idea.
>>> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously
>>> designed and
>>> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition
>>> of the
>>> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
>>> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices
>>> -- but
>>> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
>>> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage
>>> market is
>>> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>>>
>>>
>>> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it.
>>> "But I
>>> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you
>>> can even
>>> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
>>> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
>>> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your
>>> nuclear power
>>> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic
>>> equipment.
>>> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>>>
>>>
>>> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways,
>>> starting with
>>> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame.
>>> They have
>>> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
>>> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
>>> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I
>>> know it's
>>> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
>>> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to
>>> invent them.
>>> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities,
>>> maybe they
>>> wouldn't be mainframes.
>>>
>>>
>>> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things,
>>> go for
>>> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer
>>> function)
>>> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>>>
>>>
>>> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
>>> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's
>>> stipulate
>>> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's
>>> interesting,
>>> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
>>> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and
>>> in other
>>> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It
>>> depends, but
>>> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>>>
>>>
>>> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself,
>>> especially
>>> when I'm controversial.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
>>>
>>> Timothy Sipples
>>> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
>>> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>

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Mike Myers
2011-10-08 14:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Lim:

Thank you. I wanted to know because I am configuring some DS6800 storage
on a system I am installing. We will first install zVM from DVD and will
be getting z/OS in this new DVD format and I wanted to know what size
3390s to configure. I was thinking that 3390-9 would be right.

Mike Myers

On 10/07/2011 11:33 PM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
> I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a
> ?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs, at
> the Driver system.
> When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to
> 3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.
> Regards Lim ML
>
> On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:
>> Lim:
>>
>> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
>> DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>>
>> Mike Myers
>>
>> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>>> DVDs.
>>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>>> Regards Lim ML
>>>
>>> On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
>>>> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>>>>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS --
>>>>> thank
>>>>> you, IBM!
>>>> Timothy,
>>>>
>>>> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield
>>>> site z196 without a tape drive?
>>>>
>>>> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590
>>>> tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has
>>>> changed?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Roger Bowler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------Original message--------------
>>>> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS,
>>>> go for
>>>> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to
>>>> do that.
>>>> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
>>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS --
>>>> thank
>>>> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense
>>>> to have
>>>> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a
>>>> good idea.
>>>> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously
>>>> designed and
>>>> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition
>>>> of the
>>>> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
>>>> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices
>>>> -- but
>>>> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of
>>>> you
>>>> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage
>>>> market is
>>>> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it.
>>>> "But I
>>>> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you
>>>> can even
>>>> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
>>>> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
>>>> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your
>>>> nuclear power
>>>> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic
>>>> equipment.
>>>> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways,
>>>> starting with
>>>> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame.
>>>> They have
>>>> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
>>>> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
>>>> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I
>>>> know it's
>>>> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
>>>> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to
>>>> invent them.
>>>> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities,
>>>> maybe they
>>>> wouldn't be mainframes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those
>>>> things, go for
>>>> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer
>>>> function)
>>>> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
>>>> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's
>>>> stipulate
>>>> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's
>>>> interesting,
>>>> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
>>>> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and
>>>> in other
>>>> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It
>>>> depends, but
>>>> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself,
>>>> especially
>>>> when I'm controversial.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Timothy Sipples
>>>> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
>>>> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>>>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>

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Lim Ming Liang
2011-10-08 15:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Yes, when I did the ServerPac install for z/OS 1.12, somehow the 3390-9
fit the auto system layout quite nicely with the following system packs;
xxRES1
xxRES2
xxSYS1
xxDIS1
xxDIS2

of course that also depend on your site IBM ordered contents.
Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 10:10 PM, Mike Myers wrote:
> Lim:
>
> Thank you. I wanted to know because I am configuring some DS6800
> storage on a system I am installing. We will first install zVM from
> DVD and will be getting z/OS in this new DVD format and I wanted to
> know what size 3390s to configure. I was thinking that 3390-9 would be
> right.
>
> Mike Myers
>
> On 10/07/2011 11:33 PM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>> I depend on the size of the ordered contents, you may have to build a
>> ?GB size of USS dir to contain the uploaded contents from the DVDs,
>> at the Driver system.
>> When you install the ServerPac new z/OS target system, it can go to
>> 3390-3, 3390-9 dasd system layout.
>> Regards Lim ML
>>
>> On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:
>>> Lim:
>>>
>>> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are
>>> the DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>>>
>>> Mike Myers
>>>
>>> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>>>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>>>> DVDs.
>>>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>>>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>>>> Regards Lim ML
>>>>
>>>> On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
>>>>> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>>>>>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS --
>>>>>> thank
>>>>>> you, IBM!
>>>>> Timothy,
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a
>>>>> greenfield site z196 without a tape drive?
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a
>>>>> 3590 tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What
>>>>> has changed?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Roger Bowler
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------Original message--------------
>>>>> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS,
>>>>> go for
>>>>> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to
>>>>> do that.
>>>>> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
>>>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS --
>>>>> thank
>>>>> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense
>>>>> to have
>>>>> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a
>>>>> good idea.
>>>>> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously
>>>>> designed and
>>>>> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest
>>>>> definition of the
>>>>> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
>>>>> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower
>>>>> prices -- but
>>>>> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few
>>>>> of you
>>>>> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage
>>>>> market is
>>>>> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get
>>>>> it. "But I
>>>>> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you
>>>>> can even
>>>>> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
>>>>> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's
>>>>> guidance
>>>>> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your
>>>>> nuclear power
>>>>> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic
>>>>> equipment.
>>>>> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways,
>>>>> starting with
>>>>> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame.
>>>>> They have
>>>>> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates,
>>>>> testing
>>>>> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions,
>>>>> disaster
>>>>> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I
>>>>> know it's
>>>>> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
>>>>> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to
>>>>> invent them.
>>>>> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities,
>>>>> maybe they
>>>>> wouldn't be mainframes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those
>>>>> things, go for
>>>>> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer
>>>>> function)
>>>>> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
>>>>> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's
>>>>> stipulate
>>>>> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's
>>>>> interesting,
>>>>> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
>>>>> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and
>>>>> in other
>>>>> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It
>>>>> depends, but
>>>>> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> when I'm controversial.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Timothy Sipples
>>>>> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
>>>>> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>>>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN
>>>>> INFO
>>>>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>
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Lim Ming Liang
2011-10-08 03:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mike,
This may of interest to you,
http://public.dhe.ibm.com/common/ssi/ecm/en/zsq03038usen/ZSQ03038USEN.PDF

Regards Lim ML

On 08/10/11 12:29 AM, Mike Myers wrote:
> Lim:
>
> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
> DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>
> Mike Myers
>
> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>> DVDs.
>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>> Regards Lim ML
>>
>> On 07/10/11 8:45 PM, Roger Bowler wrote:
>>> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>>>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>>>> you, IBM!
>>> Timothy,
>>>
>>> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield
>>> site z196 without a tape drive?
>>>
>>> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590
>>> tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has
>>> changed?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Roger Bowler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------Original message--------------
>>> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go
>>> for
>>> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do
>>> that.
>>> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>>>
>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
>>> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>>>
>>>
>>> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>>> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense
>>> to have
>>> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a
>>> good idea.
>>> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously
>>> designed and
>>> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition
>>> of the
>>> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
>>> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices
>>> -- but
>>> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
>>> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage
>>> market is
>>> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>>>
>>>
>>> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it.
>>> "But I
>>> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you
>>> can even
>>> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
>>> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
>>> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your
>>> nuclear power
>>> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic
>>> equipment.
>>> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>>>
>>>
>>> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways,
>>> starting with
>>> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame.
>>> They have
>>> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
>>> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
>>> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I
>>> know it's
>>> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
>>> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to
>>> invent them.
>>> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities,
>>> maybe they
>>> wouldn't be mainframes.
>>>
>>>
>>> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things,
>>> go for
>>> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer
>>> function)
>>> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>>>
>>>
>>> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
>>> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's
>>> stipulate
>>> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's
>>> interesting,
>>> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
>>> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and
>>> in other
>>> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It
>>> depends, but
>>> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>>>
>>>
>>> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself,
>>> especially
>>> when I'm controversial.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
>>>
>>> Timothy Sipples
>>> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
>>> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
>> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
>>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Eells
2011-10-10 12:56:20 UTC
Permalink
The COD requires 3390-9 or larger volumes.

In ServerPac, z/OS itself is not in dump/restore format, but in data set
unload (IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IDCAMS, pax) format. The data sets are
allocated in the ISPF dialog.

The target libraries for z/OS itself will probably still fit on three to
five 3390-3s, and DLIBs on another two to four, depending on what other
products you order. You need a volume large enough to contain the
largest data set, which is probably the root filesystem unless you
convert it to a multivolume data set. I don't know what the second
largest data set is, but anyone with a ServerPac dialog can see quickly
by using Modify System Layout's View and Change option to display data
sets by size. Whatever that data set might be sets the lower reasonable
practical limit for the volume size. (You could use volumes of
different sizes if you wanted to...but who wants to?)

But, it's sure to be a lot more convenient on 3390-9s or on a 3390-27.

Mike Myers wrote:
> Lim:
>
> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
> DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>
> Mike Myers
>
> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac DVDs.
>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>> Regards Lim ML
>>
<snip>

--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Mike Myers
2011-10-10 13:58:47 UTC
Permalink
John:

Thanks. I am leaning towards 3390-9 volumes throughout, as this is going
to be z/OS running as a zVM guest and the zVM guy is expressing a
preference for mod 9s for zVM. I have seen very little need for larger
volumes that mod-9s for z/OS so far.

It was basically a question of what would be the most efficient way of
formatting the DS6800's storage without having to be concerned about
finding really large collections of related data sets to make real use
of a mod-27.

We have a much larger DS8100 that will be available to us in a few weeks
which we can configure and add any mod-27s if they make sense at that time.

Mike

On 10/10/2011 08:53 AM, John Eells wrote:
> The COD requires 3390-9 or larger volumes.
>
> In ServerPac, z/OS itself is not in dump/restore format, but in data
> set unload (IEBCOPY, IEBGENER, IDCAMS, pax) format. The data sets are
> allocated in the ISPF dialog.
>
> The target libraries for z/OS itself will probably still fit on three
> to five 3390-3s, and DLIBs on another two to four, depending on what
> other products you order. You need a volume large enough to contain
> the largest data set, which is probably the root filesystem unless you
> convert it to a multivolume data set. I don't know what the second
> largest data set is, but anyone with a ServerPac dialog can see
> quickly by using Modify System Layout's View and Change option to
> display data sets by size. Whatever that data set might be sets the
> lower reasonable practical limit for the volume size. (You could use
> volumes of different sizes if you wanted to...but who wants to?)
>
> But, it's sure to be a lot more convenient on 3390-9s or on a 3390-27.
>
> Mike Myers wrote:
>> Lim:
>>
>> I've heard a little about this new delivery method. What size are the
>> DASD images on the DVD (3390-3, 3390-9, or 3390-27)?
>>
>> Mike Myers
>>
>> On 10/07/2011 09:10 AM, Lim Ming Liang wrote:
>>> Nowaday, the IBM z/OS installation media are shipped with ServerPac
>>> DVDs.
>>> But you do need a supported z/OS Driver system to kick-start the
>>> installation, the whole process no tape drive involved .
>>> Regards Lim ML
>>>
> <snip>
>

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shmuel+ (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.)
2011-10-11 14:47:53 UTC
Permalink
In <***@mentor-services.com>, on 10/10/2011
at 09:54 AM, Mike Myers <***@MENTOR-SERVICES.COM> said:

>We have a much larger DS8100 that will be available to us in a few
>weeks which we can configure and add any mod-27s if they make sense
>at that time.

Don't forget to take your D/R site into account.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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John Eells
2011-10-07 14:16:46 UTC
Permalink
I'm not Timothy, but since I was involved in formulating the way to do this:

1. Order the Customized Offerings Driver (aka COD, 5751-COD) on DVD.
2. Modify the default IOCDS to support the COD's I/O configuration using
the installation instructions that come with the COD.
3. Restore the COD system using the instructions that come with it, and
the optical drive in the HMC.
4. Use the COD system to install your z/OS ServerPac.

See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:

http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655

Roger Bowler wrote:
> Timothy Sipples wrote:
>> A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
>> you, IBM!
>
> Timothy,
>
> Could you outline the procedure for installing z/OS on a greenfield site z196 without a tape drive?
>
> Last time I installed z/OS on a brand new z10 at a new site, a 3590 tape drive was required to load the distribution tapes. What has changed?
>
> Thanks,
> Roger Bowler
>
>
>
> --------------Original message--------------
> If you'd like to attach consumer-grade laptop hard disks to z/OS, go for
> it! There's a prolific poster to IBM-MAIN who has one idea how to do that.
> This company (no affiliation) has a couple other inexpensive ways:
>
> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/zdasd.html?&L=1
> http://www.mainstorconcept.de/mfstor.html?&L=1
>
>
> [A tape drive is no longer a requirement to start and run z/OS -- thank
> you, IBM! -- although there are many occasions when it makes sense to have
> tape drives and libraries, perhaps lots of them. "It depends."]
>
>
> Now, hard disk cheapness with your mainframe may or may not be a good idea.
> Your mileage may vary. Mainframes and z/OS are quite obviously designed and
> optimized for enterprise-grade computing, in the fullest definition of the
> term. When IBM has dabbled in storage products with somewhat fewer
> functions and less expandability (with correspondingly lower prices -- but
> without compromising quality), unfortunately, typically, too few of you
> have been buying those products. Moreover, the mainframe storage market is
> extremely competitive and has been for decades.
>
>
> This topic comes up from time to time and, frankly, I don't get it. "But I
> can buy a 1TB hard disk for my PC for $XX." Yes, you can. And you can even
> attach it, and many more like it, to your mainframe if you wish. (See
> above.) You can also install that hard disk in your missile's guidance
> system, in your space probe's scientific instruments, in your nuclear power
> plant's valve operating computer, and in your medical diagnostic equipment.
> You probably could, technically anyway. Should you?
>
>
> The fact is, these things really are different in many ways, starting with
> the misleading comparison between a spindle and a storage frame. They have
> different qualities: performance, environmentals, error rates, testing
> standards, control systems, caches, administrative functions, disaster
> recovery capabilities, storage management features, etc., etc. I know it's
> shocking, but it actually costs vendors a bit to provide those
> differentiated qualities and capabilities and to do the R&D to invent them.
> And if mainframes didn't have these qualities and capabilities, maybe they
> wouldn't be mainframes.
>
>
> But it's a free market, so if you aren't interested in those things, go for
> it! But thank goodness there are more (and higher quality/richer function)
> storage options in the world than consumer-grade PC hard disks.
>
>
> There are also endless arguments about whether a PC or a Macintosh is
> "better," and endless debates about pricing differentials. Let's stipulate
> that PCs are cheaper than Macs for sake of argument. That's interesting,
> even fascinating. Except there's one wee little problem: PCs don't
> (legally, reliably) run Mac OS X. Thus they're very different, and in other
> ways. Is running Mac OS X worth the price premium to you? It depends, but
> for increasing numbers of buyers around the world, yes, heck yes.
>
>
> As a reminder, whether or not I remind, I speak only for myself, especially
> when I'm controversial.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------
> Timothy Sipples
> Resident Enterprise Architect (Based in Singapore)
> E-Mail: ***@us.ibm.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to ***@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html


--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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David Andrews
2011-10-07 15:44:14 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 10:11 -0400, John Eells wrote:
> See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:
> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655

John, is the COD usable as a "rescue" system? (Yeah, I see that it
takes two hours simply to restore from DVD. But it might give me a warm
feeling just to have a current DVD in a vault somewhere.)

--
David Andrews
A. Duda & Sons, Inc.
***@duda.com

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John Eells
2011-10-07 16:56:30 UTC
Permalink
David Andrews wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 10:11 -0400, John Eells wrote:
>> See Topic 3.1, What is the Customized Offerings Driver?, at:
>> http://publibz.boulder.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr_OS390/BOOKS/e0z2b1c0/3.1?SHELF=EZ2ZO213&DT=20110615113655
>
> John, is the COD usable as a "rescue" system? (Yeah, I see that it
> takes two hours simply to restore from DVD. But it might give me a warm
> feeling just to have a current DVD in a vault somewhere.)

First: We support the COD's use only for installing z/OS. If you are
doing anything else with it and it doesn't work you're on your own.

For any number of configuration and security reasons I think it's
safer--and not very much overhead after you have done it the first
time--to create a rescue system of your own. I believe someone on the
list (Mark Zelden?) has a sample you can use to create a one-volume
rescue system. Additionally, if you include all the parts of z/OS
you're supposed to install when you build a rescue system, we'd support
it through normal service processes were there a problem.

Having said that, if the COD's I/O configuration matches the IOCDS
you're using, things like TSO/E and ISPF, and DFSMSdss (assuming you are
licensed for it) *should* work in the hardware environments that were
supported when that copy of the COD was created since they are required
to install z/OS using one installation method or another.

Oh, and that estimate is 2 hours *per DVD.* It's actually a pessimistic
estimate for most people because the data rates supported on newer HMCs
are significantly better than those for the oldest possible HMCs we used
to calculate it, but we didn't want tell people to expect 30 minutes per
DVD and then have it take 2 hours for each one.

--
John Eells
z/OS Technical Marketing
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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David Andrews
2011-10-07 18:19:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2011-10-07 at 12:53 -0400, John Eells wrote:
> We support the COD's use only for installing z/OS ... safer--and not
> very much overhead after you have done it the first time--to create a
> rescue system of your own. I believe someone on the list (Mark
> Zelden?) ... 2 hours *per DVD.*

All three points understood, and Mark's onepack is indeed useful. I
just thought the COD might be a warm fuzzy to stick in with the IOCP.
Thanks.

--
David Andrews
A. Duda & Sons, Inc.
***@duda.com

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