Discussion:
Two new RFE's to consider supporting
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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-21 19:09:04 UTC
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Please consider supporting these RFE's that I just submitted:

ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields

https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121576

And

Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line

https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121575


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Steve Smith
2018-06-21 21:28:56 UTC
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Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field. Catch-22.

sas

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Seymour J Metz
2018-06-22 15:54:01 UTC
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A TAB is a skip to the beginning of the next unprotected field, with wrap-around. It does not start an unprotected field.


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Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field. Catch-22.

sas

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Phil Smith III
2018-06-21 22:13:35 UTC
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Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.



Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
--
...phsiii



Phil Smith III
Senior Architect & Product Manager, Mainframe & Enterprise

Distinguished Technologist
Micro Focus (Voltage)




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Paul Gilmartin
2018-06-22 00:24:59 UTC
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Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121576
No need to change the sematics of <TAB>. Use mouse (or on a real 3270, arrow
keys) to "point" to field in question, then press the PF key assigned to "shoot".
All in software.
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
And
Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121575
Yes. I have come close to this with a Rexx/Macro that issues SYSCALL chdir.
After that, ISPF 3.17 (admirably) interprets "." as the directory I chdired to.

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-06-22 01:33:01 UTC
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Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121576
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
Reading the RFE, it appears that the submitter does not want to be able to
tab to a PAS field; rather he wants to be able to define a PAS field that
will be skipped by tab.

Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)

I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.

Long ago, I tried to specify a single-cell PAS field. The host application rejected
this, claiming that a light pen can not resolve a single cell. Bad Lowest Common
Denominator design. The application should support a possibly hi-res light pen
or other PAS device.

-- gil

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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-22 11:20:29 UTC
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Actually the desire is to tab to the PAS field but not allow the field to be over-typed.

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Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
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Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rfe/execute?use_case=viewRfe&CR_ID=121576
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
Reading the RFE, it appears that the submitter does not want to be able to
tab to a PAS field; rather he wants to be able to define a PAS field that
will be skipped by tab.

Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)

I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.

Long ago, I tried to specify a single-cell PAS field. The host application rejected
this, claiming that a light pen can not resolve a single cell. Bad Lowest Common
Denominator design. The application should support a possibly hi-res light pen
or other PAS device.

-- gil

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Peter Hunkeler
2018-06-22 14:57:40 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)


I'm no expert in the 3270 protocol, but I don't think PAS is described in the architecture. I'd rather think PAS is purely something a 3270 application has to implement: Read the cursor position returned, check if it lies within the "PAS field", and if so act accordingly.


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Peter Hunkeler




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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-22 15:00:37 UTC
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You nailed it - it is all in the application and not in the 3270 architecture itself.

It's just code - stringing together one's and zero's in the right sequence to cause the computer to do the right thing.

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Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners


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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Hunkeler
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:57 AM
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Subject: AW: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)


I'm no expert in the 3270 protocol, but I don't think PAS is described in the architecture. I'd rather think PAS is purely something a 3270 application has to implement: Read the cursor position returned, check if it lies within the "PAS field", and if so act accordingly.


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Peter Hunkeler




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David Crayford
2018-06-22 11:28:36 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.
But that requires using a mouse which is one of the the biggest
productivity killers ever invented, especially for text UIs.

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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-22 11:31:13 UTC
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If you can tab to a PAS field then you don't need the mouse, but using a PAS allows those who want to use the mouse to do so.

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Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners


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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 6:28 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.
But that requires using a mouse which is one of the the biggest
productivity killers ever invented, especially for text UIs.

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Seymour J Metz
2018-06-22 15:36:10 UTC
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Trackballs forever; we don't need no stinking rodent!

"Take that touchpad - please!"


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Subject: Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.
But that requires using a mouse which is one of the the biggest
productivity killers ever invented, especially for text UIs.

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Seymour J Metz
2018-06-22 15:48:49 UTC
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There is no such thing as a point-and-shoot field in the 3270 data stream. There are selector-pen detectable fields and fields with triggers, but neither provides a protected field that you can tab into.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1qa0scHrZZCzewz0ZGv9rseRoltXsYxDmUcaVBGKGLkU28SDq-QLBPl00IFqYP2SRrWVQO0rUMXVTne1U60kp_5sY8gQrjWZQJIDOJo5UxvVQVnIi-sIhFlxsVqrsRrG_u020TCXhQ7VlVYaJu_XcJ0RSMbBUTDFxo7xf643F4zv2dwIfpYjHNAHWd3CHDdOQfShcymSeWETPj39HoClaoeKSb1GXGy03Djt7t1bvz2F-IvLKGFcqvqXGGVN2JOm-VsHAtK8xmcO1B6a-t659MAumV5DCQZtY-wY53gvyqxe1nJ2v_bkUR99dJbA_4c_kCsm_jBQ5odn397JNaQP7Br8jMsrqTq8kBNH09e8TX0nXXToI75D19b6VkwCEsybb3jPNJ2MGOYetGQCLwNV_MPBF7_byqiX1LNLEN7Orj3tg-GOcxsk8GT_MXXX7kBpH/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121576
Post by Steve Smith
Isn't #1 impossible? From what I've retained (or think I have) of 3270
programming, a "tab" is merely the start of an unprotected field.
Catch-22.
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
Reading the RFE, it appears that the submitter does not want to be able to
tab to a PAS field; rather he wants to be able to define a PAS field that
will be skipped by tab.

Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)

I believe many emulators nowadays interpret double-click as "shoot". Or
provide "shoot" as a pop-up selection.

Long ago, I tried to specify a single-cell PAS field. The host application rejected
this, claiming that a light pen can not resolve a single cell. Bad Lowest Common
Denominator design. The application should support a possibly hi-res light pen
or other PAS device.

-- gil

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Phil Smith III
2018-06-22 01:48:02 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)
I've done lots of 3270 programming, but am unaware of what a point-and-shoot
field is. I don't remember any such bits in an attribute byte?


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Ed Jaffe
2018-06-22 02:23:39 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith III
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)
I've done lots of 3270 programming, but am unaware of what a point-and-shoot
field is. I don't remember any such bits in an attribute byte?
That's funny! Of course, there is no such things as a "point and shoot"
field in 3270! LOL!

The notion of "point and shoot" hinges entirely on how the 3270
application in question chooses to interpret the cursor position when an
AID-generating key is pressed.
--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Seymour J Metz
2018-06-22 15:44:56 UTC
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That's because there are no such bits; point-and-shoot is a software construct.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 9:47 PM
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Subject: Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Does 3270 protocol require that PAS fields be writable, therefore tabbable?
Bad design. It's perfectly reasonable to want to specify a read-only PAS
menu item. (Too few bits in the attribute byte?)
I've done lots of 3270 programming, but am unaware of what a point-and-shoot
field is. I don't remember any such bits in an attribute byte?


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Paul Gilmartin
2018-06-22 03:25:23 UTC
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Post by Ed Jaffe
That's funny! Of course, there is no such things as a "point and shoot"
field in 3270! LOL!
The notion of "point and shoot" hinges entirely on how the 3270
application in question chooses to interpret the cursor position when an
AID-generating key is pressed.
Oops! I had thought it referred to light pen (or emulated) awareness.

The OP/Requester seems to want to be able to tab to fields he deems
PAS while bypassing other writable fields. Or vice-versa. I agree this
is unlikely. Use the mouse -- almost everyone has one. Or design
panels more cleverly.

-- gil

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Tom Marchant
2018-06-22 11:51:13 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Phil Smith III
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
Reading the RFE, it appears that the submitter does not want to be able to
tab to a PAS field; rather he wants to be able to define a PAS field that
will be skipped by tab.
There is no need that a point-and-shoot field be one that you can tab to. See,
for example, the changes in SDSF to make the jobname be a point-and-shoot
field, likewise the DD name after issuing ?, or pointing and shooting on jobname.
--
Tom Marchant

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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-22 12:01:49 UTC
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Those fields in SDSF are probably PAS fields but you don't see that as the panels are more than likely dynamic in nature (I don't run SDSF so I can't check that). I'm looking at ISPF dialogs where I want to allow PAS fields where the user can either TAB or mouse and then click to activate the action. I also, in some cases, want the value in the field to be based on a variable. When that happens the field must be defined as TYPE(OUTPUT) and for some reason a TYPE(OUTPUT) field allows the user to overtype it even if the entered text is ignored. That is what I want protected.

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 6:51 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Phil Smith III
Correct. You cannot tab to a protected field. And I suspect that a request
for an update to the 3270 protocol is not likely to be fulfilled at this
point.
Reading the RFE, it appears that the submitter does not want to be able to
tab to a PAS field; rather he wants to be able to define a PAS field that
will be skipped by tab.
There is no need that a point-and-shoot field be one that you can tab to. See,
for example, the changes in SDSF to make the jobname be a point-and-shoot
field, likewise the DD name after issuing ?, or pointing and shooting on jobname.
--
Tom Marchant

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Tom Marchant
2018-06-22 12:48:28 UTC
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Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
Those fields in SDSF are probably PAS fields but you don't see that as the
panels are more than likely dynamic in nature (I don't run SDSF so I can't
check that).
Similarly, the ISPF Primary Option Menu uses point-and-shoot, and has for
years. Put your cursor on, for example, "Settings" and press enter, and you
will be taken to the Settings panel. If you enable "Tab to point-and-shoot
fields", you can tab to those fields and press enter. However, you can now
overtype those fields.
--
Tom Marchant

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Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
2018-06-22 12:51:51 UTC
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Tom - that is my issue - when you enable tabbing to a PAS field then it is now possible to overtype them - that is what I would like to change - to make them protected but still allow tabbing to them.

Just trying to make some ISPF applications more 'modern' :-)

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Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners


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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 7:48 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
Those fields in SDSF are probably PAS fields but you don't see that as the
panels are more than likely dynamic in nature (I don't run SDSF so I can't
check that).
Similarly, the ISPF Primary Option Menu uses point-and-shoot, and has for
years. Put your cursor on, for example, "Settings" and press enter, and you
will be taken to the Settings panel. If you enable "Tab to point-and-shoot
fields", you can tab to those fields and press enter. However, you can now
overtype those fields.
--
Tom Marchant

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John McKown
2018-06-22 13:09:52 UTC
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On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:52 AM Dyck, Lionel B. (RavenTek) <
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
Tom - that is my issue - when you enable tabbing to a PAS field then it is
now possible to overtype them - that is what I would like to change - to
make them protected but still allow tabbing to them.
​Not all that difficult to do using standard 3270 orders: SBA to the screen
location; SF to start an unprotected field. Immediately SF to start a
protected field. I'm fairly certain this will allow TAB to go the the
0-length unprotected field which precedes the ​protected field. If not,
then change the SF to say unprotected+dark and make then next data byte a
simple blank.
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
Just trying to make some ISPF applications more 'modern' :-)
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners
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Behalf Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
Those fields in SDSF are probably PAS fields but you don't see that as
the
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
panels are more than likely dynamic in nature (I don't run SDSF so I
can't
Post by Dyck, Lionel B. , RavenTek
check that).
Similarly, the ISPF Primary Option Menu uses point-and-shoot, and has for
years. Put your cursor on, for example, "Settings" and press enter, and you
will be taken to the Settings panel. If you enable "Tab to point-and-shoot
fields", you can tab to those fields and press enter. However, you can now
overtype those fields.
--
Tom Marchant
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There is no such thing as the Cloud. It is just somebody else’s computer.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Peter Hunkeler
2018-06-22 14:49:49 UTC
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Post by John McKown
Not all that difficult to do using standard 3270 orders: SBA to the screen
location; SF to start an unprotected field. Immediately SF to start a
protected field. I'm fairly certain this will allow TAB to go the the
0-length unprotected field which precedes the ​protected field. If not,
then change the SF to say unprotected+dark and make then next data byte a
simple blank.


This will surely work, but the cursor will be placed ahead of the PAS text. Probably not the desired result.


--
Peter Hunkeler




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Seymour J Metz
2018-06-22 16:09:56 UTC
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Given that ISPF already supports point and shoot and that IBM has no control over 3rd party 3270 simulators and TN3270 clients, you'll need a strong business case. The only solution I know of within the existing 3270 protocol is a zero-width field.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Dyck, Lionel B. (RavenTek) <***@VA.GOV>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 3:08 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

Please consider supporting these RFE's that I just submitted:

ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1eSaRV5UJ3V1J9lFuWduNMNEXKwsjEr0nnYLCdtANa5wcGIytP_p89VwxV76dUYujSzZGvsssoum5dfWf031TCGUtebzzpwdlkSgZJnaqbpOkVLJas5jtys5H1gU8JRFNOD2vMXd3U8abHHyUJFosa64XBfNSgGc5MvffGa_1ZfKyWEpmQAA3kv0sNVrx-whBQbW89l_3pWtg15_7MBLqVtWvke6na3t-Tk6vOswu28yUE4IUe2koNEA8oyONANQER39qJALUqHMLIzs58oysAkIsJcmb1ccODLmdnzKY2gXS9eVRancgDDeqgVBCArpyN5npMA64aVH_B47XdVoSdSV7DtHk5UyIdPlCkMjOI69Dv8kpj0u74ruw1jKi-4U9/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121576

And

Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xtqTd4IbEpSIeq1S0zeI1IMPcAcWsFuqmZWHpViLukOiAtsG1u7lb2OGbEuJwHffWY-3ICATc1LstgliNG5YJwm_ehvRmlvFVRjp1_ELkgd2iFLph4vBOuNp9wHVtL3RKyceFMRN7yre-njqs_Cp5ejI7zvJhlJ9KQNaY5Uf-3lQTeIfIugyV8IIgCZR8TlawkDi4qZiF7y_zgKvvN0SxF_Xz1oJoLxm35MAsfUGMTUGsbJx4aT3jrANFbnl0DsO_SX5FTaYfjwWwsARjRQPgzrQ3kmz-_4QLdHofUx_xy541tlAJhhYLLpLZ-xJoNkzcA5aQ--sPgP_7WkfCHn9hOLgHD5yzj8m5z4KMY5w5M78ygtsyAV9psRghqfpCT1w/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121575


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Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners


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Jesse 1 Robinson
2018-06-22 17:08:43 UTC
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I voted for the PAS RFE as a user, not considering what I know--or don't know--about the underlying technology. A particular ISV product some time ago changed a screen to create exactly what Lionel is complaining about. A column title on a PDS member list was suddenly tabbable, 'capturing' the cursor on its way to the first member entry. I complained and got the answer that some customers wanted this behavior so they could (re)sort the list based on that column. My objection was that 99% of the time a(ny) user wants to select a member entry, not sort the list. ISV gave me some kind of fix.

I recently started a thread here on the new default behavior of SDSF in z/OS 2.3. PAS, if it's useful at all, should be controllable by the user. I question the value of PAS if only because it interrupts the 'finger flow' of an application. You have to keep a wary eye peeled on the screen all the time to know where you're at. That might be fine for a first-time or occasional user, but it compromises productivity for the experienced user. Which most of us are.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:10 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

Given that ISPF already supports point and shoot and that IBM has no control over 3rd party 3270 simulators and TN3270 clients, you'll need a strong business case. The only solution I know of within the existing 3270 protocol is a zero-width field.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Dyck, Lionel B. (RavenTek) <***@VA.GOV>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 3:08 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

Please consider supporting these RFE's that I just submitted:

ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1eSaRV5UJ3V1J9lFuWduNMNEXKwsjEr0nnYLCdtANa5wcGIytP_p89VwxV76dUYujSzZGvsssoum5dfWf031TCGUtebzzpwdlkSgZJnaqbpOkVLJas5jtys5H1gU8JRFNOD2vMXd3U8abHHyUJFosa64XBfNSgGc5MvffGa_1ZfKyWEpmQAA3kv0sNVrx-whBQbW89l_3pWtg15_7MBLqVtWvke6na3t-Tk6vOswu28yUE4IUe2koNEA8oyONANQER39qJALUqHMLIzs58oysAkIsJcmb1ccODLmdnzKY2gXS9eVRancgDDeqgVBCArpyN5npMA64aVH_B47XdVoSdSV7DtHk5UyIdPlCkMjOI69Dv8kpj0u74ruw1jKi-4U9/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121576

And

Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xtqTd4IbEpSIeq1S0zeI1IMPcAcWsFuqmZWHpViLukOiAtsG1u7lb2OGbEuJwHffWY-3ICATc1LstgliNG5YJwm_ehvRmlvFVRjp1_ELkgd2iFLph4vBOuNp9wHVtL3RKyceFMRN7yre-njqs_Cp5ejI7zvJhlJ9KQNaY5Uf-3lQTeIfIugyV8IIgCZR8TlawkDi4qZiF7y_zgKvvN0SxF_Xz1oJoLxm35MAsfUGMTUGsbJx4aT3jrANFbnl0DsO_SX5FTaYfjwWwsARjRQPgzrQ3kmz-_4QLdHofUx_xy541tlAJhhYLLpLZ-xJoNkzcA5aQ--sPgP_7WkfCHn9hOLgHD5yzj8m5z4KMY5w5M78ygtsyAV9psRghqfpCT1w/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121575


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Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners


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Steve Smith
2018-06-22 17:42:26 UTC
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I was off-base with the tabs to protected fields. I typically use tabs for
point & shoot, and forgot about the other ways.

ISPF already has an option to allow/disallow tab to point & shoot fields.
I usually have this set off, as I don't really use point & shoot much.
Habits developed in the 80s, ya know, on real, heavy-metal 3277s and
3278s*. Is the RFE actually requesting something else?

sas

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Steve Smith
2018-06-22 18:30:39 UTC
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Dang it, I wasn't. From the RFE: " An output field should be protected
while still allowing tabbing to it. "

This is why I hate to admit being wrong. Just wind up having to do it
again.

sas
Post by Steve Smith
I was off-base with the tabs to protected fields. I typically use tabs
for point & shoot, and forgot about the other ways.
ISPF already has an option to allow/disallow tab to point & shoot fields.
I usually have this set off, as I don't really use point & shoot much.
Habits developed in the 80s, ya know, on real, heavy-metal 3277s and
3278s*. Is the RFE actually requesting something else?
sas
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Frank Swarbrick
2018-06-22 21:41:31 UTC
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I've been utilizing this new "point and shoot" feature in SDSF for about a week now. I like it, but its not perfect, for reasons others have mentioned.

In this particular case it seems to me what would be ideal is if the feature did not require the cursor to be placed within the JOBNAME column. Rather, it seems to me that:
- If the cursor is anywhere in a particular row,
- and the NP column for that row is "empty",
- then "pressing enter" would have the same action as if the NP column had '?' entered in to it.

Can't think of anything that would break, but who knows. I believe it would eliminate any need to turn on the ISPF "Tab to point-and-shoot fields" option. Basically, if not using a mouse, you could simply "newline" to the NP column on the desired line (without having to worry about "tabable" column headers) and press enter.

I have no idea if this would address the actual reason the RFE was opened.

Frank
________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson <***@SCE.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 11:08 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

I voted for the PAS RFE as a user, not considering what I know--or don't know--about the underlying technology. A particular ISV product some time ago changed a screen to create exactly what Lionel is complaining about. A column title on a PDS member list was suddenly tabbable, 'capturing' the cursor on its way to the first member entry. I complained and got the answer that some customers wanted this behavior so they could (re)sort the list based on that column. My objection was that 99% of the time a(ny) user wants to select a member entry, not sort the list. ISV gave me some kind of fix.

I recently started a thread here on the new default behavior of SDSF in z/OS 2.3. PAS, if it's useful at all, should be controllable by the user. I question the value of PAS if only because it interrupts the 'finger flow' of an application. You have to keep a wary eye peeled on the screen all the time to know where you're at. That might be fine for a first-time or occasional user, but it compromises productivity for the experienced user. Which most of us are.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:10 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

Given that ISPF already supports point and shoot and that IBM has no control over 3rd party 3270 simulators and TN3270 clients, you'll need a strong business case. The only solution I know of within the existing 3270 protocol is a zero-width field.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Dyck, Lionel B. (RavenTek) <***@VA.GOV>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 3:08 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Two new RFE's to consider supporting

Please consider supporting these RFE's that I just submitted:

ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1eSaRV5UJ3V1J9lFuWduNMNEXKwsjEr0nnYLCdtANa5wcGIytP_p89VwxV76dUYujSzZGvsssoum5dfWf031TCGUtebzzpwdlkSgZJnaqbpOkVLJas5jtys5H1gU8JRFNOD2vMXd3U8abHHyUJFosa64XBfNSgGc5MvffGa_1ZfKyWEpmQAA3kv0sNVrx-whBQbW89l_3pWtg15_7MBLqVtWvke6na3t-Tk6vOswu28yUE4IUe2koNEA8oyONANQER39qJALUqHMLIzs58oysAkIsJcmb1ccODLmdnzKY2gXS9eVRancgDDeqgVBCArpyN5npMA64aVH_B47XdVoSdSV7DtHk5UyIdPlCkMjOI69Dv8kpj0u74ruw1jKi-4U9/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121576

And

Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xtqTd4IbEpSIeq1S0zeI1IMPcAcWsFuqmZWHpViLukOiAtsG1u7lb2OGbEuJwHffWY-3ICATc1LstgliNG5YJwm_ehvRmlvFVRjp1_ELkgd2iFLph4vBOuNp9wHVtL3RKyceFMRN7yre-njqs_Cp5ejI7zvJhlJ9KQNaY5Uf-3lQTeIfIugyV8IIgCZR8TlawkDi4qZiF7y_zgKvvN0SxF_Xz1oJoLxm35MAsfUGMTUGsbJx4aT3jrANFbnl0DsO_SX5FTaYfjwWwsARjRQPgzrQ3kmz-_4QLdHofUx_xy541tlAJhhYLLpLZ-xJoNkzcA5aQ--sPgP_7WkfCHn9hOLgHD5yzj8m5z4KMY5w5M78ygtsyAV9psRghqfpCT1w/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121575


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners


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Hobart Spitz
2018-06-27 16:56:29 UTC
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Mouse selection exists. Configure your mouse to send CUR SEL, which
emulates a light-pen press. The panel needs to make the field
light-pen/CUR SEL compatible.

We did this in the early 80s, writing an in-house emulator, before
emulators were available.

OREXXMan
JCL is the buggy whip of 21st century computing. Stabilize it.
Put Pipelines in the z/OS base. Would you rather process data one
character at a time (Unix/C style), or one record at a time?
IBM has been looking for an HLL for program products; REXX is that language.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 5:41 PM, Frank Swarbrick <
Post by Frank Swarbrick
I've been utilizing this new "point and shoot" feature in SDSF for about a
week now. I like it, but its not perfect, for reasons others have
mentioned.
In this particular case it seems to me what would be ideal is if the
feature did not require the cursor to be placed within the JOBNAME column.
- If the cursor is anywhere in a particular row,
- and the NP column for that row is "empty",
- then "pressing enter" would have the same action as if the NP column had
'?' entered in to it.
Can't think of anything that would break, but who knows. I believe it
would eliminate any need to turn on the ISPF "Tab to point-and-shoot
fields" option. Basically, if not using a mouse, you could simply
"newline" to the NP column on the desired line (without having to worry
about "tabable" column headers) and press enter.
I have no idea if this would address the actual reason the RFE was opened.
Frank
________________________________
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
I voted for the PAS RFE as a user, not considering what I know--or don't
know--about the underlying technology. A particular ISV product some time
ago changed a screen to create exactly what Lionel is complaining about. A
column title on a PDS member list was suddenly tabbable, 'capturing' the
cursor on its way to the first member entry. I complained and got the
answer that some customers wanted this behavior so they could (re)sort the
list based on that column. My objection was that 99% of the time a(ny) user
wants to select a member entry, not sort the list. ISV gave me some kind of
fix.
I recently started a thread here on the new default behavior of SDSF in
z/OS 2.3. PAS, if it's useful at all, should be controllable by the user. I
question the value of PAS if only because it interrupts the 'finger flow'
of an application. You have to keep a wary eye peeled on the screen all the
time to know where you're at. That might be fine for a first-time or
occasional user, but it compromises productivity for the experienced user.
Which most of us are.
.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 9:10 AM
Subject: (External):Re: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
Given that ISPF already supports point and shoot and that IBM has no
control over 3rd party 3270 simulators and TN3270 clients, you'll need a
strong business case. The only solution I know of within the existing 3270
protocol is a zero-width field.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 3:08 PM
Subject: Two new RFE's to consider supporting
ISPF Point and Shoot Protected Fields
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1eSaRV5UJ3V1J9lFuWduNMNEXKwsjE
r0nnYLCdtANa5wcGIytP_p89VwxV76dUYujSzZGvsssoum5dfWf
031TCGUtebzzpwdlkSgZJnaqbpOkVLJas5jtys5H1gU8JRFNOD2vMXd3U8ab
HHyUJFosa64XBfNSgGc5MvffGa_1ZfKyWEpmQAA3kv0sNVrx-whBQbW89l_3pWtg15_
7MBLqVtWvke6na3t-Tk6vOswu28yUE4IUe2koNEA8oyONAN
QER39qJALUqHMLIzs58oysAkIsJcmb1ccODLmdnzKY2gXS9eVRancgDDeqgV
BCArpyN5npMA64aVH_B47XdVoSdSV7DtHk5UyIdPlCkMjOI6
9Dv8kpj0u74ruw1jKi-4U9/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%
2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121576
And
Improve ISPF 3.17 by allowing CD on the command line
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xtqTd4IbEpSIeq1S0zeI1IMPcAcWs
FuqmZWHpViLukOiAtsG1u7lb2OGbEuJwHffWY-3ICATc1LstgliNG5YJwm_ehvRmlvFVRjp1_
ELkgd2iFLph4vBOuNp9wHVtL3RKyceFMRN7yre-njqs_Cp5ejI7zvJhlJ9KQNaY5Uf-
3lQTeIfIugyV8IIgCZR8TlawkDi4qZiF7y_zgKvvN0SxF_
Xz1oJoLxm35MAsfUGMTUGsbJx4aT3jrANFbnl0DsO_SX5FTaYfjwWwsARjRQPgzrQ3kmz-_
4QLdHofUx_xy541tlAJhhYLLpLZ-xJoNkzcA5aQ--sPgP_
7WkfCHn9hOLgHD5yzj8m5z4KMY5w5M78ygtsyAV9psRghqfpCT1w/https%
3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fdeveloperworks%2Frfe%2Fexecute%3Fuse_case%
3DviewRfe%26CR_ID%3D121575
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor) <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - RavenTek Solution Partners
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