Discussion:
Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
(too old to reply)
John McKown
2017-12-20 13:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/

[quote]

Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.

The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.

[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Tony Thigpen
2017-12-20 13:17:27 UTC
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Raw Message
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.

Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-12-20 13:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2 independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.

Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Joel C. Ewing
2017-12-20 15:03:53 UTC
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Raw Message
No, not the  same. 

From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces. 
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track. 

The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module.  Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared  bearings, and a
shared drive motor.

The Seagate design description clearly indicates  two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track.  That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk.  If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
    Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2 independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
Joel C. Ewing, Bentonville, AR ***@acm.org

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R.S.
2017-12-20 15:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I think we should not relay to much on both the description and the
pictures.
It's only press article.
My understanding is the actuator is "partitioned", so each platter is
served by single head, but there are two actuators and - this is the
difference from 33xx drives - whole assembly is seen as single disk.
(of course I rely on the article and my quick review, I can be wrong)
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
No, not the same.
Post by Joel C. Ewing
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces.
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track.
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module. Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track. That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk. If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
Joel C Ewing
Post by Joel C. Ewing
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2 independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
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This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

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R.S.
2017-12-20 15:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by R.S.
I think we should not relay to much on both the description and the
pictures.
It's only press article.
My understanding is the actuator is "partitioned", so each platter is
served by single head, but there are two actuators and - this is the
difference from 33xx drives - whole assembly is seen as single disk.
(of course I rely on the article and my quick review, I can be wrong)
RELY, not relay...
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




======================================================================


--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.


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Pommier, Rex
2017-12-20 17:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Actually if one believes everything in the article, it is like the 3380s.

<quote>

Currently, operating systems read and write data to a single disk drive. With this dual actuator arm set, the drive is divided into two logical drives.

</quote>

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:25 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Post by R.S.
I think we should not relay to much on both the description and the
pictures.
It's only press article.
My understanding is the actuator is "partitioned", so each platter is
served by single head, but there are two actuators and - this is the
difference from 33xx drives - whole assembly is seen as single disk.
(of course I rely on the article and my quick review, I can be wrong)
RELY, not relay...
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




======================================================================


--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.


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R.S.
2017-12-20 17:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Well, two logical disk can be externalized as one.
Justification for the hypotesis:
* market demands - people would not expect hard partitioning as convenient.
* interface - my knowledge is outdated, but it could be cumbersome to
have two devices at the end of serial interface intended for single device.
* reasonability - one can already buy two disks and use it instead of
paying for such gizmo. BTW, there are external (USB attached) disks
which consist of two independent disk modules in single enclosure (I
have some Transcend 2TB ones).

Regards
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
Post by Pommier, Rex
Actually if one believes everything in the article, it is like the 3380s.
<quote>
Currently, operating systems read and write data to a single disk drive. With this dual actuator arm set, the drive is divided into two logical drives.
</quote>
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Post by R.S.
I think we should not relay to much on both the description and the
pictures.
It's only press article.
My understanding is the actuator is "partitioned", so each platter is
served by single head, but there are two actuators and - this is the
difference from 33xx drives - whole assembly is seen as single disk.
(of course I rely on the article and my quick review, I can be wrong)
RELY, not relay...
======================================================================


--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.


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Warren Brown
2017-12-21 01:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
YES, I REMEMBER 1410 THROUGH 360

From: "Pommier, Rex" <***@SFGMEMBERS.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

Actually if one believes everything in the article, it is like the 3380s.

<quote>

Currently, operating systems read and write data to a single disk drive. With this dual actuator arm set, the drive is divided into two logical drives.

</quote>

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:25 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Post by R.S.
I think we should not relay to much on both the description and the
pictures.
It's only press article.
My understanding is the actuator is "partitioned", so each platter is
served by single head, but there are two actuators and - this is the
difference from 33xx drives - whole assembly is seen as single disk.
(of course I rely on the article and my quick review, I can be wrong)
RELY, not relay...
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




======================================================================


        --
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.
   

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Mark Jacobs - Listserv
2017-12-20 15:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
When I started working in the field, 1979, they had a couple of 2305
devices attached to a 3033 processor. They used it for PLPA and COMMON
paging devices if I remember correctly.

Mark Jacobs
December 20, 2017 at 10:05 AM
No, not the same.
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces.
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track.
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module. Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track. That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk. If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2
independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
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December 20, 2017 at 8:18 AM
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned above
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to
and from
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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December 20, 2017 at 8:08 AM
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/>
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Global Technology Services

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-12-20 15:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Quite possible. We used the STK4305 a.o. for pagefiles and the MIM control file (the most performance sensitive files).

Grtn,
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Mark Jacobs - Listserv
Sent: 20 December, 2017 16:23
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
When I started working in the field, 1979, they had a couple of 2305
devices attached to a 3033 processor. They used it for PLPA and COMMON
paging devices if I remember correctly.
Mark Jacobs
December 20, 2017 at 10:05 AM
No, not the same.
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 &
3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces.
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track.
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module. Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track. That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the
same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk. If both are true, they have effectively
doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of
the
device.
Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2
independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as
two
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for
true
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Post by John McKown
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
o>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Post by John McKown
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to
and
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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December 20, 2017 at 8:18 AM
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for
true
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or/>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned above
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to
and from
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information
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December 20, 2017 at 8:08 AM
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or/>
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't
prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information
or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a
phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Global Technology Services
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Sean Gleann
2017-12-20 15:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I remember being taught about 'drums' whilst completing my initial IT
training course and - at the time - the HM Stationery Office system in
Norwich, an ICL 1907 under GEORGE4, - had one, apparently. But I never saw
it.

Later on in my career, I learned that Burroughs marketed a device under the
name of 'head-per-track disk'.
I never did learn if it actually had one R/W head for each track of disk,
but response time was blazingly fast for the time.
I can't help thinking that there's nothing new under the sun.

Sean



On 20 December 2017 at 15:22, Mark Jacobs - Listserv <
Post by Mark Jacobs - Listserv
When I started working in the field, 1979, they had a couple of 2305
devices attached to a 3033 processor. They used it for PLPA and COMMON
paging devices if I remember correctly.
Mark Jacobs
December 20, 2017 at 10:05 AM
No, not the same.
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces.
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track.
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module. Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track. That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk. If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2
independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuato>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Post by John McKown
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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December 20, 2017 at 8:18 AM
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned above
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to
and from
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information
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December 20, 2017 at 8:08 AM
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/>
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around
a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Please be alert for any emails that may ask you for login information
or directs you to login via a link. If you believe this message is a
phish or aren't sure whether this message is trustworthy, please send
--
Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service
Global Technology Services
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 17:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
IBM poked fun at the fixed-head disk until they announced the 2305, then it became respectable.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Sean Gleann <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 10:32 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

I remember being taught about 'drums' whilst completing my initial IT
training course and - at the time - the HM Stationery Office system in
Norwich, an ICL 1907 under GEORGE4, - had one, apparently. But I never saw
it.

Later on in my career, I learned that Burroughs marketed a device under the
name of 'head-per-track disk'.
I never did learn if it actually had one R/W head for each track of disk,
but response time was blazingly fast for the time.
I can't help thinking that there's nothing new under the sun.

Sean



On 20 December 2017 at 15:22, Mark Jacobs - Listserv <
Post by Mark Jacobs - Listserv
When I started working in the field, 1979, they had a couple of 2305
devices attached to a 3033 processor. They used it for PLPA and COMMON
paging devices if I remember correctly.
Mark Jacobs
December 20, 2017 at 10:05 AM
No, not the same.
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces.
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track.
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module. Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track. That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk. If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2
independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1lz_jyNVYAsEu275jvIUOphQMJTrKivNljG1-Rin3crLlmXaqFNNZghk46woUSPAB3llvj8GBKUFmDyhzG467EmKVJjPzoRQnZ620Y7_Nr3fOQiEzhpyrvO1Nm8BAGtQUVZs0i9QGaaazX_4ExctrDnw8wF8-oGKlnAolNTBF3rGzu1ZpfL5AqHK56fYP2_Hv8p129oEV3syFnktlLJGTuMcIWOqkA75JRXXTPl8eIJYyHj4Kn7L4bQnZbb9wdg9MWlsGhAe5G9NO74VjvU3y9ORIanxQ65IoYAUNHsWZWwwpSxvmSL_9l3iT99vXczzMADCcpAV6tTjfv_Spw9Dc0ZzUS4ByhNias4wpSX5Low_GW7Cmu9g0LRT5gX9z8vii/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HpEyRIfLRmPLWtyXdWgFpoumzU5KrVeX3PeLoQuHsvPL3lyFMQK-sQ9eDxU5EtiAf7N5qy16qvLHwobSJeKZhzI9AN3GQ7KmTLUpFt3Nek-WYGYN96XmPPu7bzbtUYLglPXom6BKTuGKNDK7xTDByX1jd2SAVYtHUIoLz52ukHK-_7j6KMVsfOQLoX9qdBAImA3bTPxRZinEJh5YmzncJ3JbPKGaSA0rHlm3KKteszB1JzriFU1lVwlSpWrlIhCMte3i8IlHR0vk2k3AVgiHZ1gUn2xU82JO3FEfbz1in53ZLrphEpoV8jNSc27ocNQAwHNJQZHjpE78Evcwn22QVOfHIkuqyNkU4XeVCPBBoFgQgrIMm2PqBdla6b5R6Rq0/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuato>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Post by John McKown
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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December 20, 2017 at 8:18 AM
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HpEyRIfLRmPLWtyXdWgFpoumzU5KrVeX3PeLoQuHsvPL3lyFMQK-sQ9eDxU5EtiAf7N5qy16qvLHwobSJeKZhzI9AN3GQ7KmTLUpFt3Nek-WYGYN96XmPPu7bzbtUYLglPXom6BKTuGKNDK7xTDByX1jd2SAVYtHUIoLz52ukHK-_7j6KMVsfOQLoX9qdBAImA3bTPxRZinEJh5YmzncJ3JbPKGaSA0rHlm3KKteszB1JzriFU1lVwlSpWrlIhCMte3i8IlHR0vk2k3AVgiHZ1gUn2xU82JO3FEfbz1in53ZLrphEpoV8jNSc27ocNQAwHNJQZHjpE78Evcwn22QVOfHIkuqyNkU4XeVCPBBoFgQgrIMm2PqBdla6b5R6Rq0/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HpEyRIfLRmPLWtyXdWgFpoumzU5KrVeX3PeLoQuHsvPL3lyFMQK-sQ9eDxU5EtiAf7N5qy16qvLHwobSJeKZhzI9AN3GQ7KmTLUpFt3Nek-WYGYN96XmPPu7bzbtUYLglPXom6BKTuGKNDK7xTDByX1jd2SAVYtHUIoLz52ukHK-_7j6KMVsfOQLoX9qdBAImA3bTPxRZinEJh5YmzncJ3JbPKGaSA0rHlm3KKteszB1JzriFU1lVwlSpWrlIhCMte3i8IlHR0vk2k3AVgiHZ1gUn2xU82JO3FEfbz1in53ZLrphEpoV8jNSc27ocNQAwHNJQZHjpE78Evcwn22QVOfHIkuqyNkU4XeVCPBBoFgQgrIMm2PqBdla6b5R6Rq0/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/>
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned above
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to
and from
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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December 20, 2017 at 8:08 AM
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HpEyRIfLRmPLWtyXdWgFpoumzU5KrVeX3PeLoQuHsvPL3lyFMQK-sQ9eDxU5EtiAf7N5qy16qvLHwobSJeKZhzI9AN3GQ7KmTLUpFt3Nek-WYGYN96XmPPu7bzbtUYLglPXom6BKTuGKNDK7xTDByX1jd2SAVYtHUIoLz52ukHK-_7j6KMVsfOQLoX9qdBAImA3bTPxRZinEJh5YmzncJ3JbPKGaSA0rHlm3KKteszB1JzriFU1lVwlSpWrlIhCMte3i8IlHR0vk2k3AVgiHZ1gUn2xU82JO3FEfbz1in53ZLrphEpoV8jNSc27ocNQAwHNJQZHjpE78Evcwn22QVOfHIkuqyNkU4XeVCPBBoFgQgrIMm2PqBdla6b5R6Rq0/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HpEyRIfLRmPLWtyXdWgFpoumzU5KrVeX3PeLoQuHsvPL3lyFMQK-sQ9eDxU5EtiAf7N5qy16qvLHwobSJeKZhzI9AN3GQ7KmTLUpFt3Nek-WYGYN96XmPPu7bzbtUYLglPXom6BKTuGKNDK7xTDByX1jd2SAVYtHUIoLz52ukHK-_7j6KMVsfOQLoX9qdBAImA3bTPxRZinEJh5YmzncJ3JbPKGaSA0rHlm3KKteszB1JzriFU1lVwlSpWrlIhCMte3i8IlHR0vk2k3AVgiHZ1gUn2xU82JO3FEfbz1in53ZLrphEpoV8jNSc27ocNQAwHNJQZHjpE78Evcwn22QVOfHIkuqyNkU4XeVCPBBoFgQgrIMm2PqBdla6b5R6Rq0/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/>
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around
a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison
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Pommier, Rex
2017-12-20 17:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Joel,

I had a similar thought when I first saw the headline, but I was thinking they put 2 actuators in the box, one dedicated to reading and the other to writing, maybe on opposite sides of the platters like the old 3380s. I was disappointed when I saw their "new technology" was no more than having 2 independent actuators, each looking at their own set of platters.

Who knows, maybe the next "new technology" they'll come up with is putting 2 heads on each actuator arm so the heads don't have to travel so far to get to the data. Oh wait, the 3380s did that too! LOL

Rex

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:05 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

No, not the  same. 

From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces. 
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track. 

The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module.  Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared  bearings, and a
shared drive motor.

The Seagate design description clearly indicates  two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track.  That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk.  If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
    Joel C Ewing
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
The 3380 (3390 also?) had the same, one pack of disks with 2 independent actuators on each side, representing 2 volumes.
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 20 December, 2017 14:19
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuato
r/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a
Post by John McKown
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above
Post by John McKown
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and
from
Post by John McKown
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
...
--
Joel C. Ewing, Bentonville, AR ***@acm.org

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Joel C. Ewing
2017-12-20 15:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
My bad.
 
I assumed the posted verbal description indicating "all heads were
positioned on the same cylinder" was accurate without looking at the
article and picture. 

Clearly from the picture the Seagate really is like the 3380/3390
solution.  Two completely independent actuators giving the appearance of
two drives in one unit with a shared drive shaft and motor.  The
doubling of throughput is ONLY because you have two drives that can be
accessing or preparing to access totally independent data at the same
time, not because of any faster access to a block of data or multiple
blocks of data on a single track of one of those devices.  Dang!  My
interpretation would have been a much more intriguing device.
    Joel C Ewing
Post by Joel C. Ewing
No, not the  same. 
Post by Joel C. Ewing
From the description of the physical characteristics of the 3380 & 3390,
it was clear that each actuator accessed independent platter surfaces. 
The R/W heads on different actuators did not access the same physical
surface much less the same physical track. 
The 3380 & 3390 hard drive modules each contained two functionally
independent hard drives within a single module.  Putting platters for
both in one module housing reduced costs and size by allowing platters
for two drives to have a shared drive shaft, shared  bearings, and a
shared drive motor.
The Seagate design description clearly indicates  two R/W heads
accessing the same physical track.  That sounds like they can at a
minimum be used to cut rotational latency time in half, and maybe (not
clear) even read or write different parts of the same track at the same
time with the potential for doing a full-track transfer in only 1/2
revolution of the disk.  If both are true, they have effectively doubled
the peak transfer rate of the drive and cut the latency time in half
without having to increase either the density or rotational speed of the
device.
    Joel C Ewing
...
--
Joel C. Ewing, Bentonville, AR ***@acm.org

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-12-20 21:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joel C. Ewing
Clearly from the picture the Seagate really is like the 3380/3390
solution.  Two completely independent actuators giving the appearance of
two drives in one unit with a shared drive shaft and motor.  The
doubling of throughput is ONLY because you have two drives that can be
accessing or preparing to access totally independent data at the same
time, not because of any faster access to a block of data or multiple
blocks of data on a single track of one of those devices.  Dang!  My
interpretation would have been a much more intriguing device.
recent ref
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#22 little old mainframes, Re: Was it ever worth it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#44 Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

or ibm 2302
IBM System/360 Component Descriptions- 2841 and Associated DASD
<a href="http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2841/GA26-5988-7_2841_DASD_Component_Descr_Dec69.pdf

2302 (never heard of any actually installed) pg59-63 (pg 59 picture
looks a little bit like the later 2305 fixed-head disk picture but not
fixed-head per track). has two access mechanism, one for the inner 250
tracks and one for the outer 250 tracks (figure 46, pg 60)

note that 2301 (fixed-head track) drum transferred four heads in
parallel for 1.2mbyte/sec transfer (compared to 2303 319kbyte/sec
transfer) and the 2305m1 transfered to heads in parallel for 3mbyte/sec
transfer compared to 1.5mbyte/sec 2305m2 (mod1 also had heads offset 180
degrees on same track so it also cut avg. rotational delay in half ...
but mod1 physically had the same number of heads, so only had have the
tracks and half the capacity)
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-21 17:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Well, the 2302 is based on the 1301 and 1302, which were common on the 7000 series, but the only disks I've seen on 360s were 2305, 2311, 2314 , 3330 and 3350. As I recall, 3330-11 and 3350 required a PRPQ.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Anne & Lynn Wheeler <***@GARLIC.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 4:52 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Post by Joel C. Ewing
Clearly from the picture the Seagate really is like the 3380/3390
solution. Two completely independent actuators giving the appearance of
two drives in one unit with a shared drive shaft and motor. The
doubling of throughput is ONLY because you have two drives that can be
accessing or preparing to access totally independent data at the same
time, not because of any faster access to a block of data or multiple
blocks of data on a single track of one of those devices. Dang! My
interpretation would have been a much more intriguing device.
recent ref
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HwgxuCIVudwA-wXpve3Bf7rAOfMm6tHpHwbL3BNWr4TxvKNnrnO0ZoWkiLG9ZqrqYSZlvXwX0rVEtRgCY5WUJlCWZXraQYaejh8i5e1Bzp0K-yiwwuywQWkxwJX9hITxC2GQ6U_jSX_aPFCH4kNSqvsQQc8HsZRqwZN95S0wdJOzyTM3QVyno8lUe4KP1TCgC0s8fhL1y8v32MF1pk7IHVO3dte3vchywpa9ikUuhnx7r--98fsX2nSjSOSzm1_tsc2DdtLvSZ1zBekHchsQ2Eyszfn9o4P4o4bM4oDDfVofL4NyS_SCdKn2__p7m0nAiag4tSF_OAcccT1T5wmI8cIA1Gok1aJNCWHXQIjL7qFjutWgc_i89ZOwrLLQc5G9jufrLtoLlP524PfmqkEzlHQsNsfLW9qz21TNli1nGN6zmQiDEvq9H7Y4gCwhHyqO/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garlic.com%2F%7Elynn%2F2017k.html#22 little old mainframes, Re: Was it ever worth it?
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HwgxuCIVudwA-wXpve3Bf7rAOfMm6tHpHwbL3BNWr4TxvKNnrnO0ZoWkiLG9ZqrqYSZlvXwX0rVEtRgCY5WUJlCWZXraQYaejh8i5e1Bzp0K-yiwwuywQWkxwJX9hITxC2GQ6U_jSX_aPFCH4kNSqvsQQc8HsZRqwZN95S0wdJOzyTM3QVyno8lUe4KP1TCgC0s8fhL1y8v32MF1pk7IHVO3dte3vchywpa9ikUuhnx7r--98fsX2nSjSOSzm1_tsc2DdtLvSZ1zBekHchsQ2Eyszfn9o4P4o4bM4oDDfVofL4NyS_SCdKn2__p7m0nAiag4tSF_OAcccT1T5wmI8cIA1Gok1aJNCWHXQIjL7qFjutWgc_i89ZOwrLLQc5G9jufrLtoLlP524PfmqkEzlHQsNsfLW9qz21TNli1nGN6zmQiDEvq9H7Y4gCwhHyqO/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garlic.com%2F%7Elynn%2F2017k.html#44 Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

or ibm 2302
IBM System/360 Component Descriptions- 2841 and Associated DASD
<a href="http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2841/GA26-5988-7_2841_DASD_Component_Descr_Dec69.pdf

2302 (never heard of any actually installed) pg59-63 (pg 59 picture
looks a little bit like the later 2305 fixed-head disk picture but not
fixed-head per track). has two access mechanism, one for the inner 250
tracks and one for the outer 250 tracks (figure 46, pg 60)

note that 2301 (fixed-head track) drum transferred four heads in
parallel for 1.2mbyte/sec transfer (compared to 2303 319kbyte/sec
transfer) and the 2305m1 transfered to heads in parallel for 3mbyte/sec
transfer compared to 1.5mbyte/sec 2305m2 (mod1 also had heads offset 180
degrees on same track so it also cut avg. rotational delay in half ...
but mod1 physically had the same number of heads, so only had have the
tracks and half the capacity)

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Pete Lancashire
2017-12-21 19:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Does a video of a 3850 in operation exist ?
Post by Seymour J Metz
Well, the 2302 is based on the 1301 and 1302, which were common on the
7000 series, but the only disks I've seen on 360s were 2305, 2311, 2314 ,
3330 and 3350. As I recall, 3330-11 and 3350 required a PRPQ.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Post by Joel C. Ewing
Clearly from the picture the Seagate really is like the 3380/3390
solution. Two completely independent actuators giving the appearance of
two drives in one unit with a shared drive shaft and motor. The
doubling of throughput is ONLY because you have two drives that can be
accessing or preparing to access totally independent data at the same
time, not because of any faster access to a block of data or multiple
blocks of data on a single track of one of those devices. Dang! My
interpretation would have been a much more intriguing device.
recent ref
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HwgxuCIVudwA-wXpve3Bf7rAOfMm6tHpHwbL3BNWr4T
xvKNnrnO0ZoWkiLG9ZqrqYSZlvXwX0rVEtRgCY5WUJlCWZXraQYaejh8i5e1Bzp0K-
yiwwuywQWkxwJX9hITxC2GQ6U_jSX_aPFCH4kNSqvsQQc8HsZRqwZN95S0wd
JOzyTM3QVyno8lUe4KP1TCgC0s8fhL1y8v32MF1pk7IHVO3dte3vchywpa9i
kUuhnx7r--98fsX2nSjSOSzm1_tsc2DdtLvSZ1zBekHchsQ2Eyszfn9o
4P4o4bM4oDDfVofL4NyS_SCdKn2__p7m0nAiag4tSF_OAcccT1T5wmI8cIA1Gok1aJNCWHXQI
jL7qFjutWgc_i89ZOwrLLQc5G9jufrLtoLlP524PfmqkEzlHQsNsfLW9qz21TNli1nGN6zmQ
iDEvq9H7Y4gCwhHyqO/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garlic.com%2F%7Elynn%2F2017k.html#22
little old mainframes, Re: Was it ever worth it?
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1HwgxuCIVudwA-wXpve3Bf7rAOfMm6tHpHwbL3BNWr4T
xvKNnrnO0ZoWkiLG9ZqrqYSZlvXwX0rVEtRgCY5WUJlCWZXraQYaejh8i5e1Bzp0K-
yiwwuywQWkxwJX9hITxC2GQ6U_jSX_aPFCH4kNSqvsQQc8HsZRqwZN95S0wd
JOzyTM3QVyno8lUe4KP1TCgC0s8fhL1y8v32MF1pk7IHVO3dte3vchywpa9i
kUuhnx7r--98fsX2nSjSOSzm1_tsc2DdtLvSZ1zBekHchsQ2Eyszfn9o
4P4o4bM4oDDfVofL4NyS_SCdKn2__p7m0nAiag4tSF_OAcccT1T5wmI8cIA1Gok1aJNCWHXQI
jL7qFjutWgc_i89ZOwrLLQc5G9jufrLtoLlP524PfmqkEzlHQsNsfLW9qz21TNli1nGN6zmQ
iDEvq9H7Y4gCwhHyqO/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.garlic.com%2F%7Elynn%2F2017k.html#44
Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
or ibm 2302
IBM System/360 Component Descriptions- 2841 and Associated DASD
<a href="http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2841/GA26-
5988-7_2841_DASD_Component_Descr_Dec69.pdf
2302 (never heard of any actually installed) pg59-63 (pg 59 picture
looks a little bit like the later 2305 fixed-head disk picture but not
fixed-head per track). has two access mechanism, one for the inner 250
tracks and one for the outer 250 tracks (figure 46, pg 60)
note that 2301 (fixed-head track) drum transferred four heads in
parallel for 1.2mbyte/sec transfer (compared to 2303 319kbyte/sec
transfer) and the 2305m1 transfered to heads in parallel for 3mbyte/sec
transfer compared to 1.5mbyte/sec 2305m2 (mod1 also had heads offset 180
degrees on same track so it also cut avg. rotational delay in half ...
but mod1 physically had the same number of heads, so only had have the
tracks and half the capacity)
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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Edward Finnell
2017-12-21 19:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Found this link via 'IBM 3850 video' search. Don't know what it shows don't have Real Player. There was a competitor called MassStor in Silicon valley.
The CE's called them noodle snatchers...
 
We had some STC SSDs in mid eighties and one gen option was 2305(or something). They were way flakey so I put primary MIX dataset on one and a few TSO swap dsns. Well we got our money's worth.
 

https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/video/storage1_high.rm
In a message dated 12/21/2017 1:04:14 PM Central Standard Time, ***@PETELANCASHIRE.COM writes:

 
Does a video of a 3850 in operation exist ?

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Dyck, Lionel B. , TRA
2017-12-21 19:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
At a large company that I worked for in the 80's and early 90's we had a couple of sharp Sysprogs who developed an extension to JES3 that allowed large sysout files to be stored on the 3850 rather than the spool, which wasn't large enough. Then there was the ability to modify the printer to print from one of those spool datasets. When it was decommissioned the CE set it up to eject the 3850 cartridges into a box and many of us were allowed to take some home - I still have 2 of them in my home office.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel B. Dyck <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA

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PINION, RICHARD W.
2017-12-21 19:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Please share a picture of the "bomb" as I remember it being called. IIRC, you could remove the cover and unwind the magnetic strip. That would be a cool picture too.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA)
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:51 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

[External Email]

At a large company that I worked for in the 80's and early 90's we had a couple of sharp Sysprogs who developed an extension to JES3 that allowed large sysout files to be stored on the 3850 rather than the spool, which wasn't large enough. Then there was the ability to modify the printer to print from one of those spool datasets. When it was decommissioned the CE set it up to eject the 3850 cartridges into a box and many of us were allowed to take some home - I still have 2 of them in my home office.

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Lionel B. Dyck <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA

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scott Ford
2017-12-21 20:16:29 UTC
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I remember drum storage , saw it first on a pair of 360-40s

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:53 PM, PINION, RICHARD W. <
Post by PINION, RICHARD W.
Please share a picture of the "bomb" as I remember it being called. IIRC,
you could remove the cover and unwind the magnetic strip. That would be a
cool picture too.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA)
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
At a large company that I worked for in the 80's and early 90's we had a
couple of sharp Sysprogs who developed an extension to JES3 that allowed
large sysout files to be stored on the 3850 rather than the spool, which
wasn't large enough. Then there was the ability to modify the printer to
print from one of those spool datasets. When it was decommissioned the CE
set it up to eject the 3850 cartridges into a box and many of us were
allowed to take some home - I still have 2 of them in my home office.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel B. Dyck <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-21 21:16:41 UTC
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2301 or 2303? As I recall, both were rather expensive for use on such a small machine.


--
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http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of scott Ford <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:17 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

I remember drum storage , saw it first on a pair of 360-40s

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 2:53 PM, PINION, RICHARD W. <
Post by PINION, RICHARD W.
Please share a picture of the "bomb" as I remember it being called. IIRC,
you could remove the cover and unwind the magnetic strip. That would be a
cool picture too.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA)
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
At a large company that I worked for in the 80's and early 90's we had a
couple of sharp Sysprogs who developed an extension to JES3 that allowed
large sysout files to be stored on the 3850 rather than the spool, which
wasn't large enough. Then there was the ability to modify the printer to
print from one of those spool datasets. When it was decommissioned the CE
set it up to eject the 3850 cartridges into a box and many of us were
allowed to take some home - I still have 2 of them in my home office.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lionel B. Dyck <sdg><
Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA
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PINION, RICHARD W.
2017-12-21 19:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
No 3850 in the video :(

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Finnell
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:41 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

[External Email]

Found this link via 'IBM 3850 video' search. Don't know what it shows don't have Real Player. There was a competitor called MassStor in Silicon valley.
The CE's called them noodle snatchers...

We had some STC SSDs in mid eighties and one gen option was 2305(or something). They were way flakey so I put primary MIX dataset on one and a few TSO swap dsns. Well we got our money's worth.


https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/video/storage1_high.rm
In a message dated 12/21/2017 1:04:14 PM Central Standard Time, ***@PETELANCASHIRE.COM writes:


Does a video of a 3850 in operation exist ?

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Edward Finnell
2017-12-21 20:29:27 UTC
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Yuck, I'll hunt some more. I remember seeing one at Ft. Benjamin Harrison in Indianapolis in late 70's but think it was attached to CDC's.


In a message dated 12/21/2017 1:51:40 PM Central Standard Time, ***@FIRSTTENNESSEE.COM writes:

 
No 3850 in the video :(

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R.S.
2017-12-20 13:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
It's not so new. Not so long time ago (OK, approx. 20 years) Seagate has
some model with two independent head sets. AFAIK the heads operated on
same platters, from different sides to avoid collisions. Only few SCSI
models existed.
--
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Lodz, Poland




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Joel C. Ewing
2017-12-20 14:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I don't think so.  Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and
there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS
as two independent disks.  By electronically selecting which of the two
heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of the
desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half.  With
a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in latency
delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter, which
might cause greater problems.
    J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-12-20 14:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes, you could configure the window as a slot location and by addressing it, you could make the arm knock on the window, trying to grab the cartridge (or what it was called).

Grtn,
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of PINION, RICHARD W.
Sent: 20 December, 2017 15:22
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it in
action?
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Allan Staller
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
"pseudo-drum" - STK4305. I remember it well <sigh>
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and
there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS
as two independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the two
heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of the
desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half. With
a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in latency
delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter, which
might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or%2F&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C1e585afeeaf14753335808
d547b42536%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C6364937614319
95373&sdata=7BNHk4Ci%2Fq8zLD%2BgBDHrtFQOcgyBXiT1kUg1nK3fD6I%3D&reserv
ed=0
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes
to and from the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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PINION, RICHARD W.
2017-12-20 14:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
If I remember correctly the cartridges were called "bombs".

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:26 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

[External Email]

Yes, you could configure the window as a slot location and by addressing it, you could make the arm knock on the window, trying to grab the cartridge (or what it was called).

Grtn,
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of PINION, RICHARD W.
Sent: 20 December, 2017 15:22
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it
in action?
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Allan Staller
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
"pseudo-drum" - STK4305. I remember it well <sigh>
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and
there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by
OS as two independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the
two heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of
the desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half.
With a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in
latency delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter,
which might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as
two drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for
true speed, one should go SSD.
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fw
ww
.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actu
at
or%2F&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C1e585afeeaf147533358
08
d547b42536%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C63649376143
19
95373&sdata=7BNHk4Ci%2Fq8zLD%2BgBDHrtFQOcgyBXiT1kUg1nK3fD6I%3D&rese
rv
ed=0
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a post at their other end to move the heads across the
platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is
positioned above the same cylindrical track on each platter and
reads or writes to and from the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Tony Thigpen
2017-12-20 14:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I don't believe you looked at the pictures or the short video. The heads
are not reading the same platters.

Tony Thigpen
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and
there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS
as two independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the two
heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of the
desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half. With
a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in latency
delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter, which
might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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R.S.
2017-12-20 15:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I know MSS only from IDCAMS/VSAM/DFSMS parameters, attributes and
restrictions.
I had hard time to find out what kind of datasets are not SMS-eligible,
etc.
The device itself I saw on some photo maybe 10 years later.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it in action?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
"pseudo-drum" - STK4305. I remember it well <sigh>
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS as two independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the two heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of the desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half. With a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in latency delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter, which might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or%2F&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C1e585afeeaf14753335808
d547b42536%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C6364937614319
95373&sdata=7BNHk4Ci%2Fq8zLD%2BgBDHrtFQOcgyBXiT1kUg1nK3fD6I%3D&reserv
ed=0
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes
to and from the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
======================================================================


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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-12-20 15:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
And a similar device: the 3350 with 2 fixed heads, addressing 1 cylinder each. Used a.o. for IMS WADSs.

Grtn,
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Allan Staller
Sent: 20 December, 2017 15:17
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
"pseudo-drum" - STK4305. I remember it well <sigh>
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and
there would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS
as two independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the two
heads to use to read the track based on which sees the start of the
desired block first, you cut the rotational latency time in half. With
a single R/W head the only way to get the same reduction in latency
delay would be to double the rotational speed of the platter, which
might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or%2F&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C1e585afeeaf14753335808
d547b42536%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C6364937614319
95373&sdata=7BNHk4Ci%2Fq8zLD%2BgBDHrtFQOcgyBXiT1kUg1nK3fD6I%3D&reserv
ed=0
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes
to and from the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Wayne Bickerdike
2017-12-21 01:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
We had a 3850 mass storage at IBM in Cosham when I worked there in 1978.
One of the cartridges came off the arm one day and broke a window.

They were like a small artillery round with a wide spool of magnetic inside
that wrapped round a drum. All in 4 seconds!

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 1:21 AM, PINION, RICHARD W. <
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it in
action?
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Allan Staller
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
[External Email]
"pseudo-drum" - STK4305. I remember it well <sigh>
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I don't think so. Says each R/W head accesses same disk blocks, and there
would be zilch improvement in speed if they were simply seen by OS as two
independent disks. By electronically selecting which of the two heads to
use to read the track based on which sees the start of the desired block
first, you cut the rotational latency time in half. With a single R/W head
the only way to get the same reduction in latency delay would be to double
the rotational speed of the platter, which might cause greater problems.
J C Ewing
Post by Tony Thigpen
From reading the description, it really just appears to the OS as two
drives in one housing.
Tony Thigpen
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww
.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuat
or%2F&data=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C1e585afeeaf14753335808
d547b42536%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C6364937614319
95373&sdata=7BNHk4Ci%2Fq8zLD%2BgBDHrtFQOcgyBXiT1kUg1nK3fD6I%3D&reserv
ed=0
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently and in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate
around a post at their other end to move the heads across the platter
surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned
above the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes
to and from the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its
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shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its
affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely
those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions
of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying,
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FIRST TENNESSEE
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Edward Gould
2017-12-21 05:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Wayne Bickerdike
We had a 3850 mass storage at IBM in Cosham when I worked there in 1978.
One of the cartridges came off the arm one day and broke a window.
They were like a small artillery round with a wide spool of magnetic inside
that wrapped round a drum. All in 4 seconds!
Wayne,

One of our CE’s had varied one of the “arms” (I no longer remember names) offline.
He was physically in the box when the robot arm actually almost hit him. From then on they were extremely careful about doing maintenance during the day.
My memory also says one time the doors to the unit were open and the 3850 shot a cartridge out and it went about 40 feet. Didn’t hurt anyone or anything.
Our 3850 was right next to a window on the 6th floor. The windows were special in the fact that you could see out but not see in (which brings up a side story) one night we were working late (1130P) and I got up from my desk and noticed that a room in the hotel across from us was very brightly lit. So I looked over in the direction and they were shooting a porn movie! We turned the lights off and enjoyed watching the show. For weeks they had operators taking their lunches by the windows so to see if they could catch anything.

Ed


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Tony Harminc
2017-12-21 03:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 20 December 2017 at 09:21, PINION, RICHARD W.
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it in action?
We think it's nifty, our thirty-eight fifty,
With cartridges, disks, and more!
It's real expensive, with storage galore.
It's so extensive, it takes up a floor.
No files we're staging, no files we're aging.
That's not what we got it for.
We won't deny it, we had to buy it,
to out-do the shop next door.

From the SHARE song book.
Sung to the tune Four Leaf Clover.

Tony H.

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Carmen Vitullo
2017-12-20 14:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey, my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.



Carmen Vitullo

----- Original Message -----

From: "John McKown" <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:08:40 AM
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/

[quote]

Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.

The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.

[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 18:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
If it was solid state then it wasn't a drum.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Carmen Vitullo <***@HUGHES.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:44 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey, my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.



Carmen Vitullo

----- Original Message -----

From: "John McKown" <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:08:40 AM
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.

http://secure-web.cisco.com/1WIa5MC7UoRkrnpOHeWb4n4X83dgcimZNVNhIQFT9P2CkvK-1Bu7XtNBFQp8I6qpIBGRP3573Dp-9Bmi9nPgBcVNduiYbtyxLlqPxT4IoepODw6STFMW6HVhAv0S64HEB8MTxekSo1FF_c18lPK6nSFC7yTqkxqxc8jRErHP_lk4M_R0cfc1lATHHpRWlLtM2ze6ku6JscBmEShPC1A7cj-J-4a_URFT2pw10_xJMzjW4V4M8wXx15_A0sm38x9CLTUYU17PPYkupGSJsG6XSBFhdtNz7Zgd9FMEak3BujEY3Vh7uD5yrhVvxEDNsTtjtG2W2Gah6WQqpPrF0L8VUrMwhXl1bq9gn3ye4EP9aaZRNIX22DbMpol1KEXueUFKUbJAIyu_jjRhzaznGqBHK95PPabnbjt6Ci030smF-j1szzrVj4Sib1guri4dbSiiS/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F

[quote]

Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.

The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.

[\quote]


--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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William Donzelli
2017-12-20 18:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
While not an actual rotating chunk of metal ("the drum"), there were
solid state units that certainly looked like one. The way to get high
density solid state memory back in the very early 1970s was to use MOS
shift registers (1024 bits on one chip!) that constantly circulated
the data. No random access, so if you wanted some data, you would have
to wait for it to leave the shift register, then grab it before it
went back in - just like the heads on a drum.

--
Will, who wants a 2305
Post by Seymour J Metz
If it was solid state then it wasn't a drum.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey, my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.
Carmen Vitullo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:08:40 AM
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1WIa5MC7UoRkrnpOHeWb4n4X83dgcimZNVNhIQFT9P2CkvK-1Bu7XtNBFQp8I6qpIBGRP3573Dp-9Bmi9nPgBcVNduiYbtyxLlqPxT4IoepODw6STFMW6HVhAv0S64HEB8MTxekSo1FF_c18lPK6nSFC7yTqkxqxc8jRErHP_lk4M_R0cfc1lATHHpRWlLtM2ze6ku6JscBmEShPC1A7cj-J-4a_URFT2pw10_xJMzjW4V4M8wXx15_A0sm38x9CLTUYU17PPYkupGSJsG6XSBFhdtNz7Zgd9FMEak3BujEY3Vh7uD5yrhVvxEDNsTtjtG2W2Gah6WQqpPrF0L8VUrMwhXl1bq9gn3ye4EP9aaZRNIX22DbMpol1KEXueUFKUbJAIyu_jjRhzaznGqBHK95PPabnbjt6Ci030smF-j1szzrVj4Sib1guri4dbSiiS/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 18:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I know of solid state devices that look like a disk; I know of none that looked like a drum. In particular, the 4305 looked like a disk.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of William Donzelli <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:16 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

While not an actual rotating chunk of metal ("the drum"), there were
solid state units that certainly looked like one. The way to get high
density solid state memory back in the very early 1970s was to use MOS
shift registers (1024 bits on one chip!) that constantly circulated
the data. No random access, so if you wanted some data, you would have
to wait for it to leave the shift register, then grab it before it
went back in - just like the heads on a drum.

--
Will, who wants a 2305
Post by Seymour J Metz
If it was solid state then it wasn't a drum.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey, my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.
Carmen Vitullo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:08:40 AM
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1WIa5MC7UoRkrnpOHeWb4n4X83dgcimZNVNhIQFT9P2CkvK-1Bu7XtNBFQp8I6qpIBGRP3573Dp-9Bmi9nPgBcVNduiYbtyxLlqPxT4IoepODw6STFMW6HVhAv0S64HEB8MTxekSo1FF_c18lPK6nSFC7yTqkxqxc8jRErHP_lk4M_R0cfc1lATHHpRWlLtM2ze6ku6JscBmEShPC1A7cj-J-4a_URFT2pw10_xJMzjW4V4M8wXx15_A0sm38x9CLTUYU17PPYkupGSJsG6XSBFhdtNz7Zgd9FMEak3BujEY3Vh7uD5yrhVvxEDNsTtjtG2W2Gah6WQqpPrF0L8VUrMwhXl1bq9gn3ye4EP9aaZRNIX22DbMpol1KEXueUFKUbJAIyu_jjRhzaznGqBHK95PPabnbjt6Ci030smF-j1szzrVj4Sib1guri4dbSiiS/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Carmen Vitullo
2017-12-20 18:43:14 UTC
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it was solid state and was drum shaped and moved like a Steam Roller, so, drum-ish





Carmen Vitullo

----- Original Message -----

From: "Seymour J Metz" <***@GMU.EDU>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:01:30 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

If it was solid state then it wasn't a drum.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Carmen Vitullo <***@HUGHES.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 9:44 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey, my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.



Carmen Vitullo

----- Original Message -----

From: "John McKown" <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 7:08:40 AM
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.

http://secure-web.cisco.com/1WIa5MC7UoRkrnpOHeWb4n4X83dgcimZNVNhIQFT9P2CkvK-1Bu7XtNBFQp8I6qpIBGRP3573Dp-9Bmi9nPgBcVNduiYbtyxLlqPxT4IoepODw6STFMW6HVhAv0S64HEB8MTxekSo1FF_c18lPK6nSFC7yTqkxqxc8jRErHP_lk4M_R0cfc1lATHHpRWlLtM2ze6ku6JscBmEShPC1A7cj-J-4a_URFT2pw10_xJMzjW4V4M8wXx15_A0sm38x9CLTUYU17PPYkupGSJsG6XSBFhdtNz7Zgd9FMEak3BujEY3Vh7uD5yrhVvxEDNsTtjtG2W2Gah6WQqpPrF0L8VUrMwhXl1bq9gn3ye4EP9aaZRNIX22DbMpol1KEXueUFKUbJAIyu_jjRhzaznGqBHK95PPabnbjt6Ci030smF-j1szzrVj4Sib1guri4dbSiiS/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F

[quote]

Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.

The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.

[\quote]
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-12-20 20:32:42 UTC
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Post by Carmen Vitullo
I remember DRUM storage, just never worked with it, the only other
DRUM storage I saw was at a tour at a data center somewhere in Jersey,
my BIL worked there, did some work with NYSE I believe, and they were
mostly all Univac or PDP systems and I saw what I think was a solid
state drum storage unit, at 19 or 20 I was quite impressed.
2303 drum was fixed-head per track about 4mbyte ... ran at 2314 transfer
and could be connected to later 360/30 (recent discussion on facebook
ibm retiree group). 2301 was pretty much 2303 ... but read/wrote four
heads in parallel, 1/4th the number of tracks, tracks four times larger,
four times the transfer speed (1.2mbytes/sec).

IBM System/360 Component Descriptions- 2841 and Associated DASD
http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2841/GA26-5988-7_2841_DASD_Component_Descr_Dec69.pdf

2302 (never heard of any actually installed) pg39-63 ... looks a little bit
like the later 2305 fixed-head disk. has two access heads, one for the
inner 250 tracks and one for the outer 250 tracks.

2303 "drum", pg 73-76.



2301 drum
http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2820/A22-6895-2_2820_2301_Component_Descr_Sep69.pdf

2301 drum was traditional "paging" drum for 360/67 virtual memory
systems ... officially TSS/360 .... but IBM science center did virtual
machine (cp67) system, Univ. of Mich did MTS system, Stanford did Orvyl
(where Wylbur editor originated).

standard 2301 (paging) format was nine 4k pages on pair of tracks (with
record spanning the end of one track and the start of next). Original
CP67 delivered to the univ. Jan1968 did single page transfer per I/O and
both disk & drum requests were executed purely FIFO. Drum requests would
cost half rev. per each transfer ... peaking at 80 page I/Os per
second. I did ordered chained I/O and could peak at 270 page I/Os per
second. I also did ordered seek queuing for disk, helping with both
(overflow) disk paging as well as file I/O operation throughput.

(later) 2305 fixed head disk, model 2 11.2mbytes, 1.5mbyte/sec transfer,
avg access 5ms. model 1 had same number of heads but they were installed
on half the number of tracks with pair of heads at 180degree offset on
same track. 5.4mbyte capacity (half m2), 2.5msec avg. rational delay
(half m2), and 3mbyte/sec transfer (twice m2). Transfer would occur on
pairs of heads in parallel, and with pairs of head on opposite side of
platter, it only had to avg. 1/4 revolution before start of record came
under pair of heads (even/odd pairs on opposite side of platter).
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_2305.html

In the early 80s, IBM cut deal with vendor for "1655" electronic disks
used by internal datacenters ... they had two modes of operation, native
mode and 2305 emulation mode. They were volatile (lost data when power
was lost) ... so were limited to paging operations. They were limited to
2305 channel data transfer and were more efficient at low to medium
loading (no rotational delay) ... but less difference at heavy loading
(since 2305 ordered chained request would already be running at near
transfer speed).

some recent posts mentioning 1655
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#24 What was a 3314?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016f.html#23 Frieden calculator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017b.html#68 The ICL 2900
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017b.html#69 The ICL 2900
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017c.html#26 Multitasking, together with OS operations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#63 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#65 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#36 National Telephone Day

I got to play disk engineer in bldgs 14&15 from mid-70s through early
80s ... some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk

3350 offered fixed-head feature for limited number of cylinders ... but
didn't have multiple exposure support (like 2305) so couldn't do
concurrent channel programs for the moveable head portion and the
fixed-head portion. I had project to add multiple exposure to 3350 with
fixed head feature (so could overlap fixed head transfer with seek
operations). There was a group in POK planning on VULCAN, for electronic
disk ... that got it killed because they thought it might compete with
them in the paging market. Eventually VULCAN gets canceled, they were
told that IBM was already selling all the electronic memory it could
make for processor memory at higher markup ... but it was too late to
resurrect multiple exposure support for 3350 fixed head feature.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Dana Mitchell
2017-12-20 16:46:22 UTC
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Mid 80's, we saw one at our DR Hotsite vendor Comdisco's Chicago location. It was onsite for one of their customers, it wasn't operational at the time but we got to look inside. They said it usually took them a few days before a test to get it functioning properly.
Dana
Drifting slightly, ever see the IBM 3850 Mass Store device, or see it in action?
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Paul Gilmartin
2017-12-20 17:11:02 UTC
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Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.

There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting bolts
out of the deck.

-- gil

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John McKown
2017-12-20 17:18:56 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting bolts
out of the deck.
​I remember that story. It still makes me giggle.​
Post by John McKown
-- gil
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--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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ITschak Mugzach
2017-12-20 17:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The second computer I worked on (the first one was IBM 360) was NCR RMC
315. It had a drum disk that read coated cards coshed by a combination of
the sticks it was hanged on. when cards did fall down, we used a pencil to
help it... Unpleasant noise they made then ;-) Don't know how many heads it
used to read a card...

ITschak

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting bolts
out of the deck.
-- gil
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ITschak Mugzach
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 17:48:25 UTC
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There was no disk on NCR CRAM..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of ITschak Mugzach <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:23 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

The second computer I worked on (the first one was IBM 360) was NCR RMC
315. It had a drum disk that read coated cards coshed by a combination of
the sticks it was hanged on. when cards did fall down, we used a pencil to
help it... Unpleasant noise they made then ;-) Don't know how many heads it
used to read a card...

ITschak

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DHgb8A1qnxL_q0R_7UcfYYlqprY1cFUfcuCknoztJbnARFqU5ToFF1_X0wBFenSvZL4u1gdZz30pBQGWxDriaTQp7BvOrVvHQGGadK7x3Y_XY-EaXaq0_oayYrerLu3Yk8SUUMeKNF0F_sDSVO1mKjkd_GWAmjksMQDqaSVEqBZ0ZXWfXp-YhIqmQw7APTAKyVsaF-2dWZbO_Msn9R5aEN68FvTOQpkCj8oDr0TIPHTN2mk4x-vCqhTJDrPmAjzfZm5MOpVmWvsTQUCNltmIlvEWFqERRbHGbZkDyNJ9-Mk6nX7IXzEGndv4YaMpNmYVeZ6en5x6zeNbEN5WYf1wFycyU3sHXGbVVFH0kA4xdGk5g1wspH-mVTHJXHvuUm86/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a
ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting bolts
out of the deck.
-- gil
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ITschak Mugzach
2017-12-20 17:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Crum! That the name i tried to recall. It was a flat disk. Same
functionality, different face.

ITschak
Post by Seymour J Metz
There was no disk on NCR CRAM..
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
The second computer I worked on (the first one was IBM 360) was NCR RMC
315. It had a drum disk that read coated cards coshed by a combination of
the sticks it was hanged on. when cards did fall down, we used a pencil to
help it... Unpleasant noise they made then ;-) Don't know how many heads it
used to read a card...
ITschak
On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DHgb8A1qnxL_q0R_
7UcfYYlqprY1cFUfcuCknoztJbnARFqU5ToFF1_X0wBFenSvZL4u1gdZz30pBQGWxDria
TQp7BvOrVvHQGGadK7x3Y_XY-EaXaq0_oayYrerLu3Yk8SUUMeKNF0F_sDSVO1mKjkd_
GWAmjksMQDqaSVEqBZ0ZXWfXp-YhIqmQw7APTAKyVsaF-2dWZbO_
Msn9R5aEN68FvTOQpkCj8oDr0TIPHTN2mk4x-vCqhTJDrPmAjzfZm5MOpVmWvsTQUCN
ltmIlvEWFqERRbHGbZkDyNJ9-Mk6nX7IXzEGndv4YaMpNmYVeZ6en5x
6zeNbEN5WYf1wFycyU3sHXGbVVFH0kA4xdGk5g1wspH-mVTHJXHvuUm86/
http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
Post by John McKown
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting
bolts
Post by John McKown
out of the deck.
-- gil
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ITschak Mugzach
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 17:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The difference between a disk and a drum is geometry, not functionality. A drum has a solid cylinder while a disk drive has flat platters.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of ITschak Mugzach <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:52 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

Crum! That the name i tried to recall. It was a flat disk. Same
functionality, different face.

ITschak
Post by Seymour J Metz
There was no disk on NCR CRAM..
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
The second computer I worked on (the first one was IBM 360) was NCR RMC
315. It had a drum disk that read coated cards coshed by a combination of
the sticks it was hanged on. when cards did fall down, we used a pencil to
help it... Unpleasant noise they made then ;-) Don't know how many heads it
used to read a card...
ITschak
On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DHgb8A1qnxL_q0R_
7UcfYYlqprY1cFUfcuCknoztJbnARFqU5ToFF1_X0wBFenSvZL4u1gdZz30pBQGWxDria
TQp7BvOrVvHQGGadK7x3Y_XY-EaXaq0_oayYrerLu3Yk8SUUMeKNF0F_sDSVO1mKjkd_
GWAmjksMQDqaSVEqBZ0ZXWfXp-YhIqmQw7APTAKyVsaF-2dWZbO_
Msn9R5aEN68FvTOQpkCj8oDr0TIPHTN2mk4x-vCqhTJDrPmAjzfZm5MOpVmWvsTQUCN
ltmIlvEWFqERRbHGbZkDyNJ9-Mk6nX7IXzEGndv4YaMpNmYVeZ6en5x
6zeNbEN5WYf1wFycyU3sHXGbVVFH0kA4xdGk5g1wspH-mVTHJXHvuUm86/
http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/166MPfESagNJi0kFFYw49O1jvfTuSaXTMb1ygyQqapeYWeKi29DOEQUimcygRUblUlx4NEqM84rJOX-uvhr9G60tcNZwfVcuovhJYasOyKnhOthcY_ugbO_0yj1B3dRNkOPkIcIbCw9iXCe96QtjvEQNjNigsKnhO_ZPcg0Jvwv8ANusEv3PqXGdthQ_mfOMUT5QPxQ-g22HGoX-66k0SyG7kcVg0y53-xXbGy71qdRw8krw4m35gT2Iipw3qMGRW9jphtnUl-C9Jd4zL1WuVM7KV_hg-sXus7K9MFkinWwcePrLvQmlTvEhcQPtPeIWxbfhjYXYONBIXEavnAoQmUTKFIGpLvoNQ3OmXaAaW0JBH_MDxOXghPcWQk551F9z8Sx1qLFLGEfOEqhOzLR4ZCMa2x7NLWnHgh9OTFD4tXfBSjG96vTRdcf93QZJHYQiQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
Post by John McKown
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting
bolts
Post by John McKown
out of the deck.
-- gil
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Pete Lancashire
2017-12-20 18:07:43 UTC
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When at Burroughs in the 70's we had a B3500 that pretty much sat unused.
Can't remember why we had such a oldie other than it was free and the
raised floor room it was in had the space. It had a ? drum. Can't remember
the size or speed, I never used the B3500, I worked graveyard and had 3x2
(3 CPUs, 2 I/O) B6700 at my disposal, if it was being used there was a
B4700 that in the years I was there was never used past about 6 PM.

I miss the days when hitting the power switch and hearing contactors
closing in sequence.

B6700 http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-
mainframe

-pete
Post by Seymour J Metz
The difference between a disk and a drum is geometry, not functionality. A
drum has a solid cylinder while a disk drive has flat platters.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
Crum! That the name i tried to recall. It was a flat disk. Same
functionality, different face.
ITschak
Post by Seymour J Metz
There was no disk on NCR CRAM..
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
The second computer I worked on (the first one was IBM 360) was NCR RMC
315. It had a drum disk that read coated cards coshed by a combination of
the sticks it was hanged on. when cards did fall down, we used a pencil
to
Post by Seymour J Metz
help it... Unpleasant noise they made then ;-) Don't know how many heads
it
Post by Seymour J Metz
used to read a card...
ITschak
On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 7:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin <
Post by John McKown
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1DHgb8A1qnxL_q0R_
7UcfYYlqprY1cFUfcuCknoztJbnARFqU5ToFF1_X0wBFenSvZL4u1gdZz30pBQGWxDria
TQp7BvOrVvHQGGadK7x3Y_XY-EaXaq0_oayYrerLu3Yk8SUUMeKNF0F_sDSVO1mKjkd_
GWAmjksMQDqaSVEqBZ0ZXWfXp-YhIqmQw7APTAKyVsaF-2dWZbO_
Msn9R5aEN68FvTOQpkCj8oDr0TIPHTN2mk4x-vCqhTJDrPmAjzfZm5MOpVmWvsTQUCN
ltmIlvEWFqERRbHGbZkDyNJ9-Mk6nX7IXzEGndv4YaMpNmYVeZ6en5x
6zeNbEN5WYf1wFycyU3sHXGbVVFH0kA4xdGk5g1wspH-mVTHJXHvuUm86/
http%3A%2F%2Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/166MPfESagNJi0kFFYw49O1jvfTuSa
XTMb1ygyQqapeYWeKi29DOEQUimcygRUblUlx4NEqM84rJOX-
uvhr9G60tcNZwfVcuovhJYasOyKnhOthcY_ugbO_0yj1B3dRNkOPkIcIbCw9iXCe96Qtjv
EQNjNigsKnhO_ZPcg0Jvwv8ANusEv3PqXGdthQ_mfOMUT5QPxQ-g22HGoX-
66k0SyG7kcVg0y53-xXbGy71qdRw8krw4m35gT2Iipw3qMG
RW9jphtnUl-C9Jd4zL1WuVM7KV_hg-sXus7K9MFkinWwcePrLvQmlTvEhcQP
tPeIWxbfhjYXYONBIXEavnAoQmUTKFIGpLvoNQ3OmXaAaW0JBH_
MDxOXghPcWQk551F9z8Sx1qLFLGEfOEqhOzLR4ZCMa2x7NLWnHgh9OTFD4tX
fBSjG96vTRdcf93QZJHYQiQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%
2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_
Post by Seymour J Metz
Post by John McKown
multi_actuator/
Post by John McKown
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate
independently
Post by Seymour J Metz
Post by John McKown
and
Post by John McKown
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting
bolts
Post by John McKown
out of the deck.
-- gil
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William Donzelli
2017-12-20 18:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Just a "Navy story". There have been comparably heavy (and often
faster spinning) motor-generators on ships since the 1930s, and they
did not have problems. That, and a ship being tossed in a storm
subjects those heavy rotating machines to worse forces.

--
Will

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
In contrast, the StorageTek SuperDisk had 4 spindles served by a single
X-shaped actuator. It sold poorly at first because the medium wasn't
removable. Then IBM introduced a drive (33xx?) with permanent medium
which somewhat legitimized the market for StorageTek.
There's a legend ("Navy story") of a Univac Fastrand drum mounted on a ship.
The ship made a sharp turn and gyroscopic torque pulled the mounting bolts
out of the deck.
-- gil
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Clark Morris
2017-12-20 18:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[Default] On 20 Dec 2017 05:07:26 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
I remember the IBM 650 which had a 2000 (I think upgradaable to 4000)
10 digit word drum that served as main memory. The instructions were
do something with memory and/or an accumulator and jump to the next
instruction.

Clark Morris
Post by John McKown
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/12/19/seagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator/
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 18:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
If you had disks or tapes then you also had 60 words of core to use as a buffer.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Clark Morris <***@NS.SYMPATICO.CA>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:07 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

[Default] On 20 Dec 2017 05:07:26 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
Post by John McKown
It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.
I remember the IBM 650 which had a 2000 (I think upgradaable to 4000)
10 digit word drum that served as main memory. The instructions were
do something with memory and/or an accumulator and jump to the next
instruction.

Clark Morris
Post by John McKown
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1gPYUWCaRzZqc8ichb3Zfl-NPiZpmUYEEIj1NNtyNbzZqHDxjF9-XPt0_J0HVtKYNXJ2ESMgMxBrvuZYQQDE74MRsZKetV7dwfC9qAi14n-wl0vTWPrQARoMVuGT4e9dWrgqbPzAaYVyNOwlSyj1jQsnZIxZo-EBPw-cycCU26x-sAkIAL524chB24KlnLxLRCIPBbVOqRCNiQVblY1M-BVPfyWuaDa5KxN8-esuGHEr5iJn-CzG-L7dlndSdh0t-abmQ3kDDlQ_bU2jqUkloHM4fvlUjdYMVPH6hIDM6GWmz2kgr7Z2QY0c3loRtMINonSrQKGT9NQ-FA-1w6n5L6OpJg6w_4jAGEA76V3QC-DW62b13HIz_HtY8RumGZ1452I_mWFkiHm74i_hR7uX30D5p3W4YORmjg_aBOIsG-j81OAkvuyTrj79EwxlP5kDK/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F
[quote]
Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.
The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.
[\quote]
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Seymour J Metz
2017-12-20 18:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The difference between a disk drive and a drum drive is geometry, not speed. A drum with moving heads, e.g., UNIVAC FastRand, is as slow as a disk with moving heads.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of John McKown <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 8:08 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

It's not really a drum, but it is getting closer. Of course, for true
speed, one should go SSD.

http://secure-web.cisco.com/14Go7ABDbjk9VThaC4sdbSdHzTz-A0KlrF-hyjgLFWoWWzkAzhXcyzC_cjHNP1gE-mHQ8VZ9ZMwB8RnVFtQMhxXjY-Fi-ozyLEBsuEYYxaPuPUu0d79W_eFl_O1i1Iohh8kPwXGF2vPBe2pnWW4dA-CDz8AY4oEqXyEPQzJk_CDOgkAFV1wErK9MuR5p7MVMswjmI_x9C-OBpYOivsvuqprW4uXtjvn691sI2gtRoMKvjQQcFAX4BnjHSe1Bkbq_IDwHblW7DsWbzml_N54li2blj1u2EjWR0SV_kupLakWdHPptQEXznXiu3qNXx5tZ_nkr80ow-dJ3ceIDxEspTwQAXRDujfeUZ1s_Yd_-xt9ZTP--6a0PJzcyndsmL2r-rbX1wYpUDQ9774fGfjyJWAFRkHGbxWLbPz9_XgJDmXxWsDIRTzUCfZcx_76eva4X5/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.co.uk%2F2017%2F12%2F19%2Fseagate_disk_drive_multi_actuator%2F

[quote]

Seagate is increasing IO performance in disk drives by separating
read-write heads into two separate sets which can operate independently and
in parallel.

The heads are positioned at one end of actuator arms which rotate around a
post at their other end to move the heads across the platter surfaces.
Thus, with an eight-platter drive, each read-write head is positioned above
the same cylindrical track on each platter and reads or writes to and from
the same disk blocks on each platter's surface.

[\quote]


--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Paul Gilmartin
2017-12-20 18:28:07 UTC
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Post by William Donzelli
While not an actual rotating chunk of metal ("the drum"), there were
solid state units that certainly looked like one. The way to get high
density solid state memory back in the very early 1970s was to use MOS
shift registers (1024 bits on one chip!) that constantly circulated
Bit dropouts due to endogenous alpha particles. Ugh. No way to shield.
Post by William Donzelli
the data. No random access, so if you wanted some data, you would have
to wait for it to leave the shift register, then grab it before it
went back in - just like the heads on a drum.
Such a StorageTek device (4305?) broke VM paging by being too fast. VM
didn't bother to seek sectors; it just trusted timing.

-- gil

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Chris Hoelscher
2017-12-20 20:19:49 UTC
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Its holiday season - Can anyone remember little "drummer" boy?

Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services

123 East Main Street
Louisville, KY 40202
Humana.com
(502) 476-2538 or 407-7266
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Tom Marchant
2017-12-22 13:15:22 UTC
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Post by Edward Finnell
The CE's called them noodle snatchers...
The 2321 Data Cell was called a noodle snatcher. I never heard
of a 3850 being called that. The 2321 was a much smaller
device that sat in one frame, maybe 2 feet wide.

When I worked at Wayne State University in the early 1970's, we
had one. I saw the thing , but never saw it in operation. It used
strips of magnetic media similar to tape, but much thicker, more
like the media in a floppy disk than a tape. The strips were on
the order of a foot long and a couple of inches wide. They were
pulled up out of their storage container and wrapped around a
spool to read and write them, then returned to their slot.

Several people had strips that had been discarded for one
reason or another, and at least one person had a strip that had
been crumpled as it was being returned to its slot.

The 3850 was much larger. When I was an Amdahl SE, one of
my accounts had one. It was probably 20 feet long, maybe
more. My impression was that it was a much improved version
of the 2321.
--
Tom Marchant

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-12-22 18:30:23 UTC
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Post by Tom Marchant
The 3850 was much larger. When I was an Amdahl SE, one of
my accounts had one. It was probably 20 feet long, maybe
more. My impression was that it was a much improved version
of the 2321.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#44 Can anyone remember "drum" storage?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#46 Can anyone remember "drum" storage?

2841 and Associated DASD ... 2311, 2302, 2303, 2321
http://www.bitsavers.com/pdf/ibm/28xx/2841/GA26-5988-7_2841_DASD_Component_Descr_Dec69.pdf

more 2321 from IBM
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_2321.html
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH2321B.html
even more 2321
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/datacell.html

magnetic stripes directly read/written

when I was undergraduate in the 60s, I got hired fulltime to be
responsible for IBM mainframe systems. The univ. library got an ONR
grant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Naval_Research

to do an online catalog. Part of the money went to getting a 2321. The
project was also selected to be be betatest for original CICS product
and I got tagged to support/debug the implementation. One troublesome
"bug" to find was that CICS had (undocumented) hard-coded BDAM options
for OPEN ... and the library was using files with different set of BDAM
options. some past CICS &/or BDAM posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#cics
some more CICS history, gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine
http://web.archive.org/web/20050409124902/http://www.yelavich.com/cicshist.htm

3850 from IBM
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850.html
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3850b.html
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3850A.html
other 3850
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3850

3850 automated tape library with 200mbyte tape cartridges for 3330-1
caching/staging hierarchy. virtual 3330-1 would be staged to/from a pool
of 3330-1 drives (hardware HSM mount/unmount 3330-1 pack ... rather than
files). Later they would support 3330-11 drives simulating two 3330-1
drives. Even later they would support 3350 drives simulating 3330-1
drives (could be considered experience for current situation where
industry standard fixed-block disks are used to simulate CKD DASD, real
CKD DASD hasn't been made for decades).

from pg. 510
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1975/5083/00/50830509.pdf

If the specific cylinder required by the CPU (1/404th of a Mass Storage
Volume) is already on DASD, an I/O operation proceeds. If not, and
data is being accessed, the MSC causes the cartridge containing the
cylinder to be placed on a Data Recording Device (DRD), and the data
contained in that cylinder to be transferred to the DASD staging buffer.

,,,

If the Operating System knows which cylinders will be accessed, it can
cause the MSC to stage only those cylinders containing the data set;
reducing the number of times cartridges need to be accessed.

... snip ...

aka a pool of real 3330 staging drives can be used to simulate a much
larger number of "mounted" 3330 virtual packs.

trivia topic drift.

1980, I had been con'ed into doing extended channel support for IBM STL
(rename silicon valley lab, SVL) ... moving 300 people from IMS group
to offsite bldg. recent (ibm-main) posts referencing effort
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#1 GREAT presentation on the history of the mainframe
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#88 Paging subsystems in the era of bigass memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#94 Migration off Mainframe to other platform
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017j.html#3 Somewhat Interesting Mainframe Article

other posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#channel.extender

1985, I was considered IBM export on the vendors hardware used for the
channel extender ... and the NCAR/UCAR IBM rep. tracked me down to help
NCAR. NCAR had bunch of (non-IBM) supercomputers and 4381 implementing
HSM function using some of the vendors hardware boxes (the vendor
implemented their own channel protocol between their boxes). The 4381
would get supercomputer network request for file/data, it would stage
the data (from tape) if required (to IBM DASD), and download a channel
program (CCWs) into one of the vendor's A515 boxes ... and return the
"handle" for that channel program to the requesting supercomputer. The
supercomputer would then request that channel program to be executed,
transfer the data to/from directly between supercomputer and IBM DASD.

I've mentioned before a senior disk engineer getting talk scheduled at
communication group conference where he said that the communication
group was going to be responsible for the demise of the disk division
(i.e. stranglehold on datacenters, not only hitting to disk division
but significant contributing to driving IBM business into the red in
the early 90s) recent (ibm-main) references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017c.html#19 Check out Massive Amazon cloud service outage disrupts sites
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017c.html#69 ComputerWorld Says: Cobol plays major role in U.S. government breaches
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#42 What are mainframes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#81 Mainframe operating systems?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#82 Mainframe operating systems?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017f.html#11 The Mainframe vs. the Server Farm: A Comparison
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017h.html#89 z14 and zBX
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017j.html#28 Db2! was: NODE.js for z/OS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#34 Bad History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017k.html#38 CMS style XMITMSG for Unix and other platforms

The disk division had come up with various solutions to reverse
the situation, but they were constantly being vetoed by the
communication group. Later, disk division is adstar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSTAR

and senior ADSTAR executive is investing in startups that would use IBM
disks (as a way of circumventing communication group vetos) ... and
would have us in periodically, asking us to lend a hand to some of
these efforts. One of the efforts was NCAR spinoff of its HSM
implementation as "Mesa Archival". trivia reference
https://spacefrontier.org/space-phoenix/

In addition to the Space Phoenix Program, the foundation is engaged in
assisting UCAR with technology transfer and communication issues
deriving from programs such as the "Airport of the Future" Doppler radar
technology, which promises early warning of sudden atmospheric
down-drafts (microbursts) near and over airport runways, and the
commercial development by Mesa Archival Systems, Inc. of mass data file
transfer software for supercomputers.

... snip ...

Implementation was upgraded to HIPPI channel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPPI

with "3rd party" transfers ... the channel program executed directly by
the HSM server, but using HIPPI "3rd party" transfers to transfer data
to/from the disk and the client. Part of the work then for fibre-channel
standard was also support "3rd party" transfers for HSM implementations
... beginning to morph into network attached storage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network-attached_storage
and storage area network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_area_network

posts referencing communication group dumb terminal paradigm, including
references to communication group stranglehold on datacenters and going
to be responsible for demise of disk division
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Edward Finnell
2017-12-22 19:30:57 UTC
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Raw Message
Been too long. Only seen one of each and noodle snatcher came from Hearsay of having coffee with the CE's. Then trailed off into 8" floppies.


In a message dated 12/22/2017 7:16:53 AM Central Standard Time, 0000000a2a8c2020-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU writes:

 
The 2321 Data Cell was called a noodle snatcher. I never heard

of a 3850 being called that. The 2321 was a much smaller
device that sat in one frame, maybe 2 feet wide.

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