Discussion:
SoftwareXcel Discontinued
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Ed Jaffe
2017-09-07 16:06:50 UTC
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On Aug 8, 2017 IBM announced they are withdrawing the following offerings:

SoftwareXcel Basic Edition (6942-77G)
SoftwareXcel Enterprise Edition (6942-77E)
Alert for zSeries (6942-16D)
Resolve for zSeries (6942-23D)

replacing them with:

z Systems Premier Software Care (6950-07W)
z Systems Premier Software Care - Alert and Resolve (6948-53Z)

We use SoftwareXcel Basic Edition today and our contract is up for
renewal at the end of the year.

What scares me is IBM won't even tell us how much "z Systems Premier
Software Care" will cost. That fear is fueled by the observation that
the same replacement offering applies to both existing SoftwareXcel
Basic Edition and Enterprise Edition customers! Yikes!!!

We're a small shop. We *really* don't want to be paying thousands every
month just for the "privilege" of being able to report bugs with, and
get fixes for, our non-Linux mainframe software. (IMHO such support
ought to be included free as part of MLC and S&S payments, but that's a
discussion for another day...) Currently, SoftwareXcel Basic is ~$300/mo
per userid. We have only one...

Bracing for impact (not unlike some Floridians I know)...
--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Gord Tomlin
2017-09-07 19:01:06 UTC
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Post by Ed Jaffe
We're a small shop. We *really* don't want to be paying thousands every
month just for the "privilege" of being able to report bugs with, and
get fixes for, our non-Linux mainframe software. (IMHO such support
ought to be included free as part of MLC and S&S payments, but that's a
discussion for another day...)
This is as good a day as any...

Charging for the privilege of reporting bugs, and obtaining fixes for
the bugs, puts the incentives for the charging vendor in the wrong
place. It reduces the net cost to the vendor of handling defects, and
transfers part of the financial impact of bugs from the vendor to the
customers. It could be viewed as reducing the vendor's incentive to
develop relatively bug-free software.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507

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Jim Mulder
2017-09-07 20:07:35 UTC
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With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)

Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Date: 09/07/2017 03:58 PM
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Post by Ed Jaffe
We're a small shop. We *really* don't want to be paying thousands every
month just for the "privilege" of being able to report bugs with, and
get fixes for, our non-Linux mainframe software. (IMHO such support
ought to be included free as part of MLC and S&S payments, but that's a
discussion for another day...)
This is as good a day as any...
Charging for the privilege of reporting bugs, and obtaining fixes for
the bugs, puts the incentives for the charging vendor in the wrong
place. It reduces the net cost to the vendor of handling defects, and
transfers part of the financial impact of bugs from the vendor to the
customers. It could be viewed as reducing the vendor's incentive to
develop relatively bug-free software.
--
Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
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Gord Tomlin
2017-09-07 21:35:15 UTC
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Post by Jim Mulder
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software.:-)
Glad you picked up on the tongue in cheek! In real life, willfully being
buggy would soon be followed by unwillingly being out of business.

--

Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507

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Tom Conley
2017-09-07 22:15:24 UTC
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Post by Jim Mulder
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.

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Lizette Koehler
2017-09-07 23:00:42 UTC
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I think that this is awesome. I get to go Easter egg hunts (Bug hunts) for fun and giggles.

Thank you IBM very much

Lizette
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tom Conley
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments, those of
us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software don't have
anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.
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Steve Thompson
2017-09-07 23:42:12 UTC
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Jim:

Now come on, fess up. When put that code there that way, it was
for an undocumented feature.

Some undocumented features work better than others, but still...

<VBG>

Regards,
Steve Thompson
Post by Jim Mulder
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
<snippage>

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Edward Gould
2017-09-08 01:10:30 UTC
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Post by Jim Mulder
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Jim,

So IBM admits to having bugs in their software? Then you should be paying the customer to find them for IBM.

Ed


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Barry Merrill
2017-09-08 14:47:31 UTC
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I did that in my three day class, initially handing a 1980 dollar bill for
each typo
found in my foils, and after a couple of years handing a 5'er for the last
few.

And I could argue that http://www.mxg.com/codesharks page is "paying"
customers
who find bugs.

Merrilly yours,

Barry


Merrilly yours,

Herbert W. Barry Merrill, PhD
President-Programmer
Merrill Consultants
MXG Software
10717 Cromwell Drive technical questions: ***@mxg.com
Dallas, TX 75229
http://www.mxg.com admin questions: ***@mxg.com
tel: 214 351 1966
fax: 214 350 3694




-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 8:02 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments, those of us
in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software don't have
anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Jim,

So IBM admits to having bugs in their software? Then you should be paying
the customer to find them for IBM.

Ed


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Andrew Rowley
2017-09-07 23:15:04 UTC
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Post by Gord Tomlin
Charging for the privilege of reporting bugs, and obtaining fixes for
the bugs, puts the incentives for the charging vendor in the wrong
place. It reduces the net cost to the vendor of handling defects, and
transfers part of the financial impact of bugs from the vendor to the
customers. It could be viewed as reducing the vendor's incentive to
develop relatively bug-free software.
As a vendor, I greatly appreciate customers who take the time to report
bugs. It helps improve the software and helps me do my job. I suspect
that most of the developers at IBM feel the same way.

However, there are parts of IBM that view problem reports as a nuisance.
They work very hard to close them before the developers see them. I
suspect IBM developers don't realize how much time and effort it takes a
customer to get a problem report past these gatekeepers before they see it.
--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software
+61 413 302 386

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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-09-07 20:36:18 UTC
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I for one am grateful the bugs IBM inserts. If not for them, I would not have a job. ;-))

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Mulder
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 1:09 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued

With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments, those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)

Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Date: 09/07/2017 03:58 PM
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued Sent by: IBM Mainframe
Post by Ed Jaffe
We're a small shop. We *really* don't want to be paying thousands
every
Post by Ed Jaffe
month just for the "privilege" of being able to report bugs with,
and get fixes for, our non-Linux mainframe software. (IMHO such
support ought to be included free as part of MLC and S&S payments,
but that's
a
Post by Ed Jaffe
discussion for another day...)
This is as good a day as any...
Charging for the privilege of reporting bugs, and obtaining fixes for
the bugs, puts the incentives for the charging vendor in the wrong
place. It reduces the net cost to the vendor of handling defects, and
transfers part of the financial impact of bugs from the vendor to the
customers. It could be viewed as reducing the vendor's incentive to
develop relatively bug-free software.
--
Regards, Gord Tomlin
Action Software International
(a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
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Paul Gilmartin
2017-09-07 23:02:49 UTC
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Post by Tom Conley
Post by Jim Mulder
With regard to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs. So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software. :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.
That cynicism will predictably be aroused by any organization that accounts
defect support as a profit center. (I have no evidence that IBM does so.)

-- gil

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Bill Johnson
2017-09-08 00:56:34 UTC
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Auto dealers make tons of money fixing defective cars. All software companies charge for bug fixes. Some just hide it in the initial cost of the software.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Post by Tom Conley
  With regard  to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,
those of us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software
don't have anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs.  So that does not play any part in
our decisions about how many bugs to include in the software.  :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test  IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.
That cynicism will predictably be aroused by any organization that accounts
defect support as a profit center.  (I have no evidence that IBM does so.)

-- gil

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Gibney, Dave
2017-09-08 01:02:33 UTC
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Auto "Makers" try to avoid shipping defective cars. Recalls can be expensive.
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Auto dealers make tons of money fixing defective cars. All software
companies charge for bug fixes. Some just hide it in the initial cost of the
software.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 7:04 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by Tom Conley
  With regard  to only the last sentence in Gord's comments, those of
us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software don't have
anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs.  So that does not play any part in our
decisions about how many bugs to include in the software.  :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test  IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.
That cynicism will predictably be aroused by any organization that accounts
defect support as a profit center.  (I have no evidence that IBM does so.)
-- gil
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Edward Gould
2017-09-08 01:23:52 UTC
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Post by Gibney, Dave
Auto "Makers" try to avoid shipping defective cars. Recalls can be expensive.
I wonder if IBM would accept a box of tapes with Z/os in it?
What would be funnier is to not attach postage and make IBM pay for it.

Ed
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Bill Johnson
2017-09-08 01:51:54 UTC
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They don't build them using 6 sigma. It would put most dealers out of business.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 9:03 PM, Gibney, Dave <***@WSU.EDU> wrote:

Auto "Makers" try to avoid shipping defective cars. Recalls can be expensive.
Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Auto dealers make tons of money fixing defective cars. All software
companies charge for bug fixes. Some just hide it in the initial cost of the
software.
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Thursday, September 7, 2017, 7:04 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by Tom Conley
  With regard  to only the last sentence in Gord's comments,  those of
us in z/OS development who put the bugs into the software  don't have
anything to do with the IBM offerings for reporting bugs and
obtaining fixes for the bugs.  So that does not play any part in  our
decisions about how many bugs to include in the software.  :-)
Jim Mulder z/OS Diagnosis, Design, Development, Test  IBM Corp.
Poughkeepsie NY
Laugh it up, furball.
That cynicism will predictably be aroused by any organization that accounts
defect support as a profit center.  (I have no evidence that IBM does so.)
-- gil
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Paul Gilmartin
2017-09-07 23:53:53 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rowley
As a vendor, I greatly appreciate customers who take the time to report
bugs. It helps improve the software and helps me do my job. I suspect
that most of the developers at IBM feel the same way.
However, there are parts of IBM that view problem reports as a nuisance.
They work very hard to close them before the developers see them. I
suspect IBM developers don't realize how much time and effort it takes a
customer to get a problem report past these gatekeepers before they see it.
Development management, often impelled by schedules imposed by
Marketing, is apt to view defect response as competing for development
resource and, in defense, nurture those gatekeepers.

A suitably small organization can afford neither separation of developlent
and maintenance nor gatekeepers.

--gil

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Andrew Rowley
2017-09-08 00:21:34 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Development management, often impelled by schedules imposed by
Marketing, is apt to view defect response as competing for development
resource and, in defense, nurture those gatekeepers.
Other forms of QA also impact on development schedules. But I have no
disagreement with the operation of L1 support etc. in principle. The
problem is when they deny the existence of a problem and/or close
problems prematurely to meet resolution targets. The greater the
separation of L1 support from the developers, the less interest L1
support have in improving the actual product.

The bigger problem is when an organization views customer problem
reports as something to be minimized (as opposed to actual problems).

I am aware that problems get prioritized amongst a long list of other
problems and features. If a problem is recorded and assigned a priority
of "if we run out of other things to do" that's OK - at least someone
has noted that it exists.
--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software
+61 413 302 386

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Paul Gilmartin
2017-09-08 02:34:28 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rowley
The bigger problem is when an organization views customer problem
reports as something to be minimized (as opposed to actual problems).
That's what I call "the Microsoft QA metric": the MTB calls to support.
I discovered this years ago when I emailed a colleague a JCL snippet
containing such as:
// BLKSIZE=6144
... and he replied, "WTF 'BLKSIZEa44'?" He had, foolishly IMO, configured
Word as his MS Exchange viewer. I surmise MSW ignored my MIME header,
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit"; did a Bayesian analysis of the content;
and presumed Quoted-printable. They get fewer service calls by assuming
the MIME headers are wrong than by honoring them.

Likewise an HP PostScript printer failed my text document that contained
a quoted sample of PostScript code: Bayesian analysis said "PostScript",
but the PostScript was invalid.

DWIM is too often a misapplication of Postel's Robustness Principle.

I need barely mention browsers' attempts to cover up HTML misconceptions
such as <BR><BR><BR>.

-- gil

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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-09-08 02:56:37 UTC
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Some time back SHARE folks got wind that IBM was scoring APARs as defects against owning organizations and dinging them accordingly. As customers we took great umbrage at that judgement, arguing with IBM management that APAR fixes--PTFs--serve to improve the product. Especially PTFs installed as preventative maintenance.

It's hard to know what actual impact we had, but we delivered the message loud and clear and seemed to get a sympathetic ear from the IBM managers who attend SHARE expressly to find out what customers think.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 7:36 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: SoftwareXcel Discontinued
Post by Andrew Rowley
The bigger problem is when an organization views customer problem
reports as something to be minimized (as opposed to actual problems).
That's what I call "the Microsoft QA metric": the MTB calls to support.
I discovered this years ago when I emailed a colleague a JCL snippet containing such as:
// BLKSIZE=6144
... and he replied, "WTF 'BLKSIZEa44'?" He had, foolishly IMO, configured Word as his MS Exchange viewer. I surmise MSW ignored my MIME header,
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit"; did a Bayesian analysis of the content; and presumed Quoted-printable. They get fewer service calls by assuming the MIME headers are wrong than by honoring them.

Likewise an HP PostScript printer failed my text document that contained a quoted sample of PostScript code: Bayesian analysis said "PostScript", but the PostScript was invalid.

DWIM is too often a misapplication of Postel's Robustness Principle.

I need barely mention browsers' attempts to cover up HTML misconceptions such as <BR><BR><BR>.

-- gil


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