new member, need old iron assistance

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Dave McGuire

2017-04-28 17:39:53 UTC

Hi folks, new list member here. I come seeking the wisdom of gurus.
Please forgive any breach of protocol.

I'm looking for some assistance with some older iron, a 3290 plasma
terminal. I have it partially functional, connected to a 3174, and can
get into the terminal's setup panels, but those panels are essentially
useless without documentation. I'm not getting any sessions through the
3174 to the 3290, so something is wrong somewhere. Other terminals
connected to the same 3174 reach hosts just fine. It's my hope that
I'll be able to figure it out once I find the appropriate documentation.

I believe the setup panels are documented in publication GA23-0241,
which doesn't appear to be available online anywhere.

Would anyone here have a copy of that manual, or any other relevant
material, on a dusty bookshelf? Or would anyone with knowledge of
3290+3174 configuration be willing to give me some assistance?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
-Dave

Feller, Paul

2017-04-28 17:47:56 UTC

Permalink

If I remember correctly if you plan on doing multiple screens on the 3290 you also have to setup the 3174 to handle it. As an example if you want 4 3270 mod4s you have to let the 3174 know you will be using up a total of 4 ports on the 3174.

Thanks..

Paul Feller
AGT Mainframe Technical Support

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 12:31
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: new member, need old iron assistance

Hi folks, new list member here. I come seeking the wisdom of gurus.
Please forgive any breach of protocol.

I'm looking for some assistance with some older iron, a 3290 plasma
terminal. I have it partially functional, connected to a 3174, and can
get into the terminal's setup panels, but those panels are essentially
useless without documentation. I'm not getting any sessions through the
3174 to the 3290, so something is wrong somewhere. Other terminals
connected to the same 3174 reach hosts just fine. It's my hope that
I'll be able to figure it out once I find the appropriate documentation.

I believe the setup panels are documented in publication GA23-0241,
which doesn't appear to be available online anywhere.

Would anyone here have a copy of that manual, or any other relevant
material, on a dusty bookshelf? Or would anyone with knowledge of
3290+3174 configuration be willing to give me some assistance?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

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Dave McGuire

2017-04-28 19:59:27 UTC

Permalink

Hello Paul, yes I think I have that set up correctly. But this got
me thinking, and I may be misunderstanding something about the 3174 and
its handling of multiple sessions.

What I've done is configured MLT (Multiple Logical Terminal) support
on the 3174, which works well on the other terminals; I can switch back
and forth between four independent sessions on the same terminal. Only
one coax port on the 3174 is used for this.

I had assumed that this is how the 3290 handles multiple sessions.
Your suggestion of allocating a total of four ports on the 3174 for the
3290 got me thinking that perhaps it does this a different way; do you
mean allocating four actual physical coax ports on the 3174 for the 3290?

-Dave

Post by Feller, Paul
If I remember correctly if you plan on doing multiple screens on the
3290 you also have to setup the 3174 to handle it. As an example if
you want 4 3270 mod4s you have to let the 3174 know you will be using
up a total of 4 ports on the 3174.
Thanks..
Paul Feller AGT Mainframe Technical Support
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List
new member, need old iron assistance
Hi folks, new list member here. I come seeking the wisdom of gurus.
Please forgive any breach of protocol.
I'm looking for some assistance with some older iron, a 3290 plasma
terminal. I have it partially functional, connected to a 3174, and
can get into the terminal's setup panels, but those panels are
essentially useless without documentation. I'm not getting any
sessions through the 3174 to the 3290, so something is wrong
somewhere. Other terminals connected to the same 3174 reach hosts
just fine. It's my hope that I'll be able to figure it out once I
find the appropriate documentation.
I believe the setup panels are documented in publication GA23-0241,
which doesn't appear to be available online anywhere.
Would anyone here have a copy of that manual, or any other relevant
material, on a dusty bookshelf? Or would anyone with knowledge of
3290+3174 configuration be willing to give me some assistance?
Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
Respectfully, -Dave

Feller, Paul

2017-04-28 20:39:01 UTC

Permalink

I have not seen a 3290 in years, but I think the next few ports in the 3174 become dead ports. So if you are defining 4 sessions the next three ports to the one you plug in the coax in the 3174 become dead. You still need the VTAM/LU stuff defined. I think. Like I said I have not seen a 3290 or a 3174 in years.

Thanks..

Paul Feller
AGT Mainframe Technical Support

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 15:00
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: new member, need old iron assistance

Hello Paul, yes I think I have that set up correctly. But this got
me thinking, and I may be misunderstanding something about the 3174 and
its handling of multiple sessions.

What I've done is configured MLT (Multiple Logical Terminal) support
on the 3174, which works well on the other terminals; I can switch back
and forth between four independent sessions on the same terminal. Only
one coax port on the 3174 is used for this.

I had assumed that this is how the 3290 handles multiple sessions.
Your suggestion of allocating a total of four ports on the 3174 for the
3290 got me thinking that perhaps it does this a different way; do you
mean allocating four actual physical coax ports on the 3174 for the 3290?

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

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Steve Smith

2017-04-29 02:34:31 UTC

Permalink

Wow. You really want to operate a 3290 in this age? It must be 30 years
old; but then I guess they were built to last. ISTR mine weighed in around
75 lbs. (some people thought it was bolted down), and that maybe a newer
and somewhat lighter model came out later. Must have been the mid-'90s.

Anyway, my gut says you could buy a couple 24" displays for what that
monster will cost you in power & cooling for a year. It got pretty hot.

sas

Post by Feller, Paul
I have not seen a 3290 in years, but I think the next few ports in the
3174 become dead ports. So if you are defining 4 sessions the next three
ports to the one you plug in the coax in the 3174 become dead. You still
need the VTAM/LU stuff defined. I think. Like I said I have not seen a
3290 or a 3174 in years.
Thanks..
Paul Feller
AGT Mainframe Technical Support
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 15:00
Subject: Re: new member, need old iron assistance
Hello Paul, yes I think I have that set up correctly. But this got
me thinking, and I may be misunderstanding something about the 3174 and
its handling of multiple sessions.
What I've done is configured MLT (Multiple Logical Terminal) support
on the 3174, which works well on the other terminals; I can switch back
and forth between four independent sessions on the same terminal. Only
one coax port on the 3174 is used for this.
I had assumed that this is how the 3290 handles multiple sessions.
Your suggestion of allocating a total of four ports on the 3174 for the
3290 got me thinking that perhaps it does this a different way; do you
mean allocating four actual physical coax ports on the 3174 for the 3290?
-Dave

--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA
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--
sas

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Dave McGuire

2017-04-29 03:21:14 UTC

Permalink

Post by Steve Smith
Wow. You really want to operate a 3290 in this age?

Yes I do. This is in a museum. But honestly, as a professional
developer by day, I'd happily type on that thing all day long. It's
gorgeous!

Post by Steve Smith
It must be 30 years old; but then I guess they were built to last.

About 35 years old, yes. And yes, built like tanks. And quite hard
to find nowadays; they cost a small fortune if you can even find one.

Post by Steve Smith
ISTR mine weighed in around 75 lbs.

I'd guess around 60lbs. I don't like to move it very often. ;)

Post by Steve Smith
(some people thought it was bolted down),

Yup, I can certainly see that. :)

Post by Steve Smith
and that maybe a newer
and somewhat lighter model came out later. Must have been the mid-'90s.

Yes, the 3290-2. It didn't have the big "humpback" protrusion that
contained most of the logic; it was integrated into the panel. We have
one of those too, here at the Large Scale Systems Museum in the
Pittsburgh area.

Post by Steve Smith
Anyway, my gut says you could buy a couple 24" displays for what that
monster will cost you in power & cooling for a year. It got pretty hot.

Yup. I haven't measured its power consumption, but it does crank out
the heat. The Museum can sometimes make it clear until mid-January
before starting the building's main boiler. :-)

Speaking of the Large Scale Systems Museum...We're actually about to
have our grand re-opening shindig after a big expansion and many months
of renovations; would it be compatible with the charter of this list to
post an announcement here? We do have quite a bit of IBM iron.

-Dave

Tom Brennan

2017-04-29 04:39:36 UTC

Permalink

I worked with a 3290 that had 4 mod-2 displays all visible at once. I
always thought it had 4 coax cables, but now I can't remember ever
looking at the back. It was in a tape room and had an MVS console for
each of 3 systems, with the 4th display available as a TSO terminal.
This was probably a couple of years before TN3270 emulators with
multiple windows became popular, and I used it myself a bit (I was the
tape sysprog at the time). I remember underlines instead if highlighted
text, probably because the plasma pixels just had two settings - on or
off. I also remember it being rather slow displaying text - you could
basically watch the text "paint" itself from top-to-bottom when a new
screen came in from the host. But hey, you got to type on a 3270
keyboard with real Clear and Reset and Erase-EOF keys. Now I feel bad
because the one I worked on probably ended up in the trash.

I never heard of the museum, so I googled for the address and there's a
street-view picture of a guy in a black t-shirt unloading various boxes
that must be for the museum.

It's less than an hour from a datacenter I worked at last month, so if I
need to go to Pittsburgh again I'd sure like to see the museum. And
yes, please post anything about it here! Disclaimer: I have absolutely
no authority whatsoever :)

Post by Dave McGuire

Post by Steve Smith
Wow. You really want to operate a 3290 in this age?

Yes I do. This is in a museum. But honestly, as a professional
developer by day, I'd happily type on that thing all day long. It's
gorgeous!

Post by Steve Smith
It must be 30 years old; but then I guess they were built to last.

About 35 years old, yes. And yes, built like tanks. And quite hard
to find nowadays; they cost a small fortune if you can even find one.

Post by Steve Smith
ISTR mine weighed in around 75 lbs.

I'd guess around 60lbs. I don't like to move it very often. ;)

Post by Steve Smith
(some people thought it was bolted down),

Yup, I can certainly see that. :)

Post by Steve Smith
and that maybe a newer
and somewhat lighter model came out later. Must have been the mid-'90s.

Post by Steve Smith
Anyway, my gut says you could buy a couple 24" displays for what that
monster will cost you in power & cooling for a year. It got pretty hot.

Yup. I haven't measured its power consumption, but it does crank out
the heat. The Museum can sometimes make it clear until mid-January
before starting the building's main boiler. :-)
Speaking of the Large Scale Systems Museum...We're actually about to
have our grand re-opening shindig after a big expansion and many months
of renovations; would it be compatible with the charter of this list to
post an announcement here? We do have quite a bit of IBM iron.
-Dave

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Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 03:32:21 UTC

Permalink

Neat. Yes, the 3290 isn't the fastest of terminals. Later releases
of the 3174 microcode has some nice 3290-specific performance
optimization options that help, though, so they're not too bad.

Post by Tom Brennan
Now I feel bad because the one I worked on probably ended up in the trash.

That's very sad to hear. That fate befell far too much good,
historically-important hardware.

Post by Tom Brennan
I never heard of the museum, so I googled for the address and there's a
street-view picture of a guy in a black t-shirt unloading various boxes
that must be for the museum.

Ah yes, that'd either be me, or more likely Chris, who is one of our
volunteers. We both wear black T-shirts pretty much perpetually. ;) So
now one of us is "Google Street View Famous". ;)

Post by Tom Brennan
It's less than an hour from a datacenter I worked at last month, so if I
need to go to Pittsburgh again I'd sure like to see the museum. And
yes, please post anything about it here! Disclaimer: I have absolutely
no authority whatsoever :)

Understood. :) A few people have asked about it, so I will send a
copy of my announcement email to the list shortly. It's pretty short
notice for the big opening event itself (it's Saturday, May 6th) but
hopefully some folks from here will be able to make it.

-Dave

Pommier, Rex

2017-05-01 18:39:06 UTC

Permalink

Ahh, yes. The slow refresh rate of the 3290. I don't know about yours, but we could not only watch the 3290 repaint the screen top to bottom, but we could also hear it repaint. Kind of a quiet rattling or rapid clicking sound during a refresh. Couldn't hear it in the machine room, but it was definitely audible in an office setting.

Rex

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tom Brennan
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 11:40 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: new member, need old iron assistance

I worked with a 3290 that had 4 mod-2 displays all visible at once. I always thought it had 4 coax cables, but now I can't remember ever looking at the back. It was in a tape room and had an MVS console for each of 3 systems, with the 4th display available as a TSO terminal.
This was probably a couple of years before TN3270 emulators with multiple windows became popular, and I used it myself a bit (I was the tape sysprog at the time). I remember underlines instead if highlighted text, probably because the plasma pixels just had two settings - on or off. I also remember it being rather slow displaying text - you could basically watch the text "paint" itself from top-to-bottom when a new screen came in from the host. But hey, you got to type on a 3270 keyboard with real Clear and Reset and Erase-EOF keys. Now I feel bad because the one I worked on probably ended up in the trash.

I never heard of the museum, so I googled for the address and there's a street-view picture of a guy in a black t-shirt unloading various boxes that must be for the museum.

It's less than an hour from a datacenter I worked at last month, so if I need to go to Pittsburgh again I'd sure like to see the museum. And yes, please post anything about it here! Disclaimer: I have absolutely no authority whatsoever :)

The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

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Joel C. Ewing

2017-04-29 14:25:53 UTC

Permalink

Only 1 coax cable and physical controller port:
"The 3290 Information Panel attaches to a 3274 Control unit utilizing
one physical port and up to five addresses, depending on the
application. Up to 31 3290's can be attached to a 3274 depending on the
application and 3274 model being used. The 3290 Information Panel
attaches with the same coax cable that is used with other Category A
terminals to attach to a 3274 Control Unit."

Obviously that should require some special configuration at the Control
Unit level since for ordinary 3270 terminals there was only one address
associated with each physical port on the controller. I believe the
reason for the max of five addresses was so you could select to run the
device as if it were four regular-sized independent 3270 devices, or one
huge screen display (on the 5th device address). My vague recollection
is that when running as a single large display ISPF supported doing both
vertical and horizontal splits to split the display into four logical
parts driven by a single ISPF session.
Joel C. Ewing

Post by Tom Brennan
I worked with a 3290 that had 4 mod-2 displays all visible at once. I
always thought it had 4 coax cables, but now I can't remember ever
looking at the back. It was in a tape room and had an MVS console for
each of 3 systems, with the 4th display available as a TSO terminal.
This was probably a couple of years before TN3270 emulators with
multiple windows became popular, and I used it myself a bit (I was the
tape sysprog at the time). I remember underlines instead if
highlighted text, probably because the plasma pixels just had two
settings - on or off. I also remember it being rather slow displaying
text - you could basically watch the text "paint" itself from
top-to-bottom when a new screen came in from the host. But hey, you
got to type on a 3270 keyboard with real Clear and Reset and Erase-EOF
keys. Now I feel bad because the one I worked on probably ended up in
the trash.
I never heard of the museum, so I googled for the address and there's
a street-view picture of a guy in a black t-shirt unloading various
boxes that must be for the museum.
It's less than an hour from a datacenter I worked at last month, so if
I need to go to Pittsburgh again I'd sure like to see the museum. And
yes, please post anything about it here! Disclaimer: I have
absolutely no authority whatsoever :)

Post by Dave McGuire

Post by Steve Smith
Wow. You really want to operate a 3290 in this age?

Yes I do. This is in a museum. But honestly, as a professional
developer by day, I'd happily type on that thing all day long. It's
gorgeous!

Post by Steve Smith
It must be 30 years old; but then I guess they were built to last.

About 35 years old, yes. And yes, built like tanks. And quite
hard to find nowadays; they cost a small fortune if you can even find
one.

Post by Steve Smith
ISTR mine weighed in around 75 lbs.

I'd guess around 60lbs. I don't like to move it very often. ;)

Post by Steve Smith
(some people thought it was bolted down),

Yup, I can certainly see that. :)

Post by Steve Smith
and that maybe a newer
and somewhat lighter model came out later. Must have been the mid-'90s.

Yes, the 3290-2. It didn't have the big "humpback" protrusion that
contained most of the logic; it was integrated into the panel. We
have one of those too, here at the Large Scale Systems Museum in the
Pittsburgh area.

Post by Steve Smith
Anyway, my gut says you could buy a couple 24" displays for what that
monster will cost you in power & cooling for a year. It got pretty hot.

Yup. I haven't measured its power consumption, but it does crank
out the heat. The Museum can sometimes make it clear until
mid-January before starting the building's main boiler. :-)
Speaking of the Large Scale Systems Museum...We're actually about
to have our grand re-opening shindig after a big expansion and many
months of renovations; would it be compatible with the charter of
this list to post an announcement here? We do have quite a bit of
IBM iron.
-Dave

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Steve Smith

2017-04-29 19:14:18 UTC

Permalink

Ah, a museum. That's awesome, and best of luck getting the 3290
running. I do remember it fondly. I had it for some years sometime
between 1985 and '95. I was continually re-configuring it, and I think
I liked a 3-way setup most of the time.

I'm sure many on this list are interested in the museum, in fact, I'd
guess this is likely one of the best places to talk about it. Warning:
it doesn't take much provocation for some of us with considerable
experience to start reminiscing.

sas

Post by Dave McGuire

Post by Steve Smith
Wow. You really want to operate a 3290 in this age?

Yes I do. This is in a museum. But honestly, as a professional
developer by day, I'd happily type on that thing all day long. It's
gorgeous!

Post by Steve Smith
It must be 30 years old; but then I guess they were built to last.

About 35 years old, yes. And yes, built like tanks. And quite hard
to find nowadays; they cost a small fortune if you can even find one.

Post by Steve Smith
ISTR mine weighed in around 75 lbs.

I'd guess around 60lbs. I don't like to move it very often. ;)

Post by Steve Smith
(some people thought it was bolted down),

Yup, I can certainly see that. :)

Post by Steve Smith
and that maybe a newer
and somewhat lighter model came out later. Must have been the mid-'90s.

Yes, the 3290-2. It didn't have the big "humpback" protrusion that
contained most of the logic; it was integrated into the panel. We
have one of those too, here at the Large Scale Systems Museum in the
Pittsburgh area.

Post by Steve Smith
Anyway, my gut says you could buy a couple 24" displays for what that
monster will cost you in power & cooling for a year. It got pretty hot.

Yup. I haven't measured its power consumption, but it does crank
out the heat. The Museum can sometimes make it clear until
mid-January before starting the building's main boiler. :-)
Speaking of the Large Scale Systems Museum...We're actually about to
have our grand re-opening shindig after a big expansion and many
months of renovations; would it be compatible with the charter of this
list to post an announcement here? We do have quite a bit of IBM iron.
-Dave

Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 03:37:25 UTC

Permalink

Post by Steve Smith
Ah, a museum. That's awesome, and best of luck getting the 3290
running.

Thanks! I've located a copy of the manual that covers the 3290 setup
panels. It's a bit on the expensive side, but I'll be purchasing it
tomorrow. Maybe that'll arrive soon enough to get me over this hump. I
really want us to be able to show off the 3290 running next weekend.

Post by Steve Smith
I do remember it fondly. I had it for some years sometime
between 1985 and '95. I was continually re-configuring it, and I think
I liked a 3-way setup most of the time.

Nice!

Post by Steve Smith
I'm sure many on this list are interested in the museum, in fact, I'd
it doesn't take much provocation for some of us with considerable
experience to start reminiscing.

Oh, believe me, I know what you mean. ;) I actually come from the
other side of the computing world; I started out in DECland, cut my
teeth on PDP-11s (had a big one in my bedroom as a teenager in the
mid-1980s), was a DEC VMS sysadmin for many years on a bunch of VAXen,
and have been ensconced in the commercial UNIX world for most of my life
after that. The "graybeards" in that side of the world get just as
verbosely sentimental, believe me. ;) We do all love our machines.

-Dave

Michael O'Byrne

2017-04-28 17:51:45 UTC

Permalink

Do you have a DSL disk for the 3290?

DSL Disks: The DSL (Downstream Load) disk contains the diagnostics, system

bringup code, and microcode for a display station that needs the control
unit to
downstream-load this code to it -for example, the 3290 Information Panel.
The
DSL disk is also used to load the microcode necessary to support the
Asynchro-
nous Emulation Adapter (AEA). You can merge the code from one DSL disk
onto
another DSL disk. You can have the DSL code for as many as four types of
devices, or three types of devices and the AEA, on each DSL disk. If there
are no
DSL displays in the cluster and you are not configuring for the AEA, you
will not
need to use a DSL disk.

https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_ibm3174GA2ngGuideOct88_23395575/GA23-0214-3_3174_Customizing_Guide_Oct88_djvu.txt

Michael C. O'Byrne
Senior Software Analyst - Enterprise Server
Foot Locker Corporate Services
7800 W Brown Deer Rd, Milwaukee, WI 53223
(414) 357-4094

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Dave McGuire

2017-04-28 19:58:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by Michael O'Byrne
Do you have a DSL disk for the 3290?

Yes I do. In the interest of brevity, I neglected to mention that
this 3290 works well (in single-session mode) from a 3174-11L that's
connected to a different host via parallel channel.

What I'm trying to do now is run it from a 3174-61R which has
Ethernet support.

I've merged the DSL data into the -61R and the terminal requests it
appropriately and comes up fine. The only sticking point is that it
session screens don't appear on the 3290. Other terminals (3179, 3191,
3180) connected to the same controller do.

-Dave

Carmen Vitullo

2017-04-28 18:03:36 UTC

Permalink

I can't remember if the 3290 has the ability to modify the controller like the 3270's did, plug the coax or twisted pair into port 0 and use the SETUP or control key to get into setup / diagnose mode?

Carmen

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dave McGuire" <***@LSSMUSEUM.ORG>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 12:30:32 PM
Subject: new member, need old iron assistance

Hi folks, new list member here. I come seeking the wisdom of gurus.
Please forgive any breach of protocol.

I'm looking for some assistance with some older iron, a 3290 plasma
terminal. I have it partially functional, connected to a 3174, and can
get into the terminal's setup panels, but those panels are essentially
useless without documentation. I'm not getting any sessions through the
3174 to the 3290, so something is wrong somewhere. Other terminals
connected to the same 3174 reach hosts just fine. It's my hope that
I'll be able to figure it out once I find the appropriate documentation.

I believe the setup panels are documented in publication GA23-0241,
which doesn't appear to be available online anywhere.

Would anyone here have a copy of that manual, or any other relevant
material, on a dusty bookshelf? Or would anyone with knowledge of
3290+3174 configuration be willing to give me some assistance?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

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Dave McGuire

2017-04-28 19:57:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by Carmen Vitullo
I can't remember if the 3290 has the ability to modify the controller
like the 3270's did, plug the coax or twisted pair into port 0 and
use the SETUP or control key to get into setup / diagnose mode?

Carmen Vitullo

2017-04-28 20:01:12 UTC

Permalink

Ok, got ya, Been so long since I've seen one, I forgot the difference.

Carmen

----- Original Message -----

From: "Dave McGuire" <***@LSSMUSEUM.ORG>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 2:58:40 PM
Subject: Re: new member, need old iron assistance

Hello Carmen, no, as far as I'm aware the 3174 configuration on port
0 from the maintenance disk can only be done with a CUT terminal, while
the 3290 is a DFT device. I use a 3179 terminal for configuration.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA

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Dana Mitchell

2017-04-28 20:12:25 UTC

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If I am remembering correctly, the 3290 handled it's sessions itself, differently than using MLT for regular terminals. In the configuration, do you assign LU's to each 3174 port? I think you need to assign extra LU's to the port that the 3290 is plugged into.
Dana

Post by Dave McGuire
What I've done is configured MLT (Multiple Logical Terminal) support
on the 3174, which works well on the other terminals; I can switch back
and forth between four independent sessions on the same terminal. Only
one coax port on the 3174 is used for this.
I had assumed that this is how the 3290 handles multiple sessions.
Your suggestion of allocating a total of four ports on the 3174 for the
3290 got me thinking that perhaps it does this a different way; do you
mean allocating four actual physical coax ports on the 3174 for the 3290?
-Dave

John McKown

2017-04-28 20:27:22 UTC

Permalink

This is kind of interesting, but not really detailed.

http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/3/897/ENUS183-033/index.html

a bit more interesting:
http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/IBM/Mainframe/Hardware/Terminals/GA27-2827-13_3274PlanningSetupCustomizingMay84.pdf

Post by Dana Mitchell
If I am remembering correctly, the 3290 handled it's sessions itself,
differently than using MLT for regular terminals. In the configuration,
do you assign LU's to each 3174 port? I think you need to assign extra
LU's to the port that the 3290 is plugged into.
Dana

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Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 03:25:16 UTC

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Post by Dana Mitchell
If I am remembering correctly, the 3290 handled it's sessions itself,
differently than using MLT for regular terminals.

Yes, the 3290 is a DFT, not a CUT, so it does multi-session MIS
(Multiple Interactive Sessions) style, not MLT-style. As I (now)
understand it, MLT is only for CUT (dumb) terminals, but DFTs use MIS.

Post by Dana Mitchell
In the
configuration, do you assign LU's to each 3174 port? I think you
need to assign extra LU's to the port that the 3290 is plugged into.

I had, yes, but it didn't get me anywhere.

In between cleaning, polishing, and setting up demos of running
systems for the big museum re-opening next weekend (will announce here
shortly, a few people have asked) I keep going back to the 3174+3290 and
fiddling. I'm mostly doing it in the dark...I have 3174 documentation,
but no manuals for the 3290's setup panels yet, and the parameters are
unlabeled. I've learned a lot, but still don't have any sessions
visible on the 3290.

What I've come to suspect is that the 3290 is actually working
properly, but there's something to do with terminal sizing or something
like that that's keeping the session selection screen from coming up.
This 3174 is a -61R with Ethernet and TCP/IP capability (Configuration
C), and it's set up to present a connection selection screen so the user
can select a host to which to connect. That has been configured and
working here, on several different CUT terminals, for a couple of years.
I'm just trying to add the 3290 to the mix. But that connection
selection screen just never appears.

My next step is to try to configure a static connection from one of
the 3290's sessions directly to a host in the 3174's configuration, and
see if that host's logon screen appears. If it does, then I'll know
there's something up with the way the 3174 wants to present its
connection selection screen.

-Dave

Edward Finnell

2017-04-29 06:10:51 UTC

Permalink

IBM tried to give us a bunch of these back in the nineties. I don't
remember all the details. With MES for 3290 support and upgrade to Config
Support-B for 3174's they were way too expensive. IBM was charging $1500 for 20Mb
hard drives. Think we ended up with the Info Windows with VGA ports and a
couple of DATA21 large screens for production control and operations.

In a message dated 4/28/2017 10:22:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@LSSMUSEUM.ORG writes:

Yes I do. This is in a museum. But honestly, as a professional
developer by day, I'd happily type on that thing all day long. It's
gorgeous!

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Parwez Hamid

2017-04-29 23:38:45 UTC

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Dave,

I have sent a 18 MB pdf file - 3274 Control Unit customization, planning and set-up guide direct to you. For a 3290 attached to a 3174 you need the configuration support T licensed microcode disk for the 3274 and for a 3173 CU I think its configuration support C. The 3274 used a 8 inch floppy disk for the microcode!

Parwez Hamid

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John P. Baker

2017-04-30 06:08:51 UTC

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I recommend that you take a look at IBM publication GA23-0214-03.

Do a Google search on "3174 customization" and select the entry starting "Full text of...".

John P. Baker

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Parwez Hamid
Dave,
I have sent a 18 MB pdf file - 3274 Control Unit customization, planning and set-up guide direct to you. For a 3290 attached to a 3174 you need the configuration support T licensed microcode disk for the 3274 and for a 3173 CU I think its configuration support C. The 3274 used a 8 inch floppy disk for the microcode!
Parwez Hamid
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Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 03:49:53 UTC

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Post by John P. Baker
I recommend that you take a look at IBM publication GA23-0214-03.
Do a Google search on "3174 customization" and select the entry starting "Full text of...".

Thank you John, got that one already.

-Dave

Parwez Hamid

2017-04-30 12:21:35 UTC

Permalink

Resending. Original response had a few typos :-)

Dave,

I have sent a 18 MB pdf file - 3274 Control Unit customization, planning and set-up guide direct to you. For a 3290 attached to a 3274 you need the configuration support T licensed microcode disk and for a 3172 Control unit, I think its configuration support C. The 3274 used a 8 inch floppy disk for the microcode!

Parwez Hamid

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Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 03:14:52 UTC

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Post by Parwez Hamid
Resending. Original response had a few typos :-)
Dave,
I have sent a 18 MB pdf file - 3274 Control Unit customization,
planning and set-up guide direct to you. For a 3290 attached to a
3274 you need the configuration support T licensed microcode disk and
for a 3172 Control unit, I think its configuration support C. The
3274 used a 8 inch floppy disk for the microcode!

Hi Parwez, thanks for the PDF, but maybe I was not specific enough,
I'm actually running the 3290 from a 3174, not a 3274. The Museum here
does have a 3274, but it's not yet in use.

-Dave

Edward Finnell

2017-05-01 04:34:36 UTC

Permalink

If you do a find on 3290 there are numerous references to 3290 specific
manuals. Don't know if they're on bitsavers or not. Probably maybe....

In a message dated 4/30/2017 10:50:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
***@LSSMUSEUM.ORG writes:

Thank you John, got that one already.

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Dave McGuire

2017-05-01 04:39:02 UTC

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Bitsavers is the first place I checked. ;)

-Dave

Post by Edward Finnell
If you do a find on 3290 there are numerous references to 3290 specific
manuals. Don't know if they're on bitsavers or not. Probably maybe....
In a message dated 4/30/2017 10:50:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Thank you John, got that one already.
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1***@gmail.com

2017-05-22 06:18:13 UTC

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Post by Dave McGuire
Hi folks, new list member here. I come seeking the wisdom of gurus.
Please forgive any breach of protocol.
I'm looking for some assistance with some older iron, a 3290 plasma
terminal. I have it partially functional, connected to a 3174, and can
get into the terminal's setup panels, but those panels are essentially
useless without documentation. I'm not getting any sessions through the
3174 to the 3290, so something is wrong somewhere. Other terminals
connected to the same 3174 reach hosts just fine. It's my hope that
I'll be able to figure it out once I find the appropriate documentation.
I believe the setup panels are documented in publication GA23-0241,
which doesn't appear to be available online anywhere.
Would anyone here have a copy of that manual, or any other relevant
material, on a dusty bookshelf? Or would anyone with knowledge of
3290+3174 configuration be willing to give me some assistance?
Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
Respectfully,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum
New Kensington, PA
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Hi Dave,

I'll be sure to visit your museum next time I'm in Pittsburgh. It's great to provide a way for us older folks to reminisce and hold forth a bit for fascinated youngsters. I think it will be able to show a very different timeline acceleration pattern compared to other museums.

Assuming nothing else is amiss, your 3290 woes are probably due to your connecting via TCP/IP -- the 3174-61R supports such connection for devices
that behave like CUT devices, but not for DFT devices.

From https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?infotype=OC&subtype=NA&htmlfid=897/ENUS3174-64R&appname=System%20Storage

"Distributed Function Terminals (DFTs) interpret the data stream
because they have a control program downstream-loaded to them from the
3174 (the 3290, for example) or because of a control program loaded in
their diskette drive or fixed disk (the 3270PC, for example). As a
result, the 3174 simply passes the data stream between the host and
the DFT without modification. Thus, the responsibility for data stream
interpretation is distributed to these terminals. How the DFTs
interpret the 3270 data stream is described in their individual
description books.

Also available is an extension to the DFT terminal called a DFT-E. A
DFT-E supports a CUT interface and a DFT interface on the same
controller port at the same time. Sessions through the CUT interface of
a DFT-E display can access ASCII hosts, perform online tests, and
perform X.21 and X.25 dialing. Sessions through the DFT interface
operate as normal DFTs.

For DFTs, such as the 3290, the 3174 merely passes the data stream
because the DFT can interpret the data stream independently. But for
CUTs, such as the 3278, that are communicating with the 3270 host, the
3174 interprets every keystroke that is entered at the display
stations. For ASCII devices communicating with a 3270 host, the 3174
also interprets every keystroke that is entered since they are
emulating CUT devices."

From https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?infotype=OC&subtype=NA&htmlfid=897/ENUS3174-64R&appname=System%20Storage

"TCP/IP Telnet Support provides Telnet client function for the IBM 3174
Establishment Controller. This support allows interactive access to
remote TCP/IP hosts/servers from dependent 3174 attached terminals.
Control Unit Terminal (CUT), ASCII, and Distributed Function
Terminal-Extended (DFT-E) terminals can communicate directly with
TCP/IP hosts/servers. This function was previously provided via RPQ
8Q0935."

The non-extended DFTs don't manage the parsing of ethernet TCP/IP packets into 3270 data 3270 stream IO, and the 3174 doesn't do that without also doing the interpretation of the 3270 data, as it does for CUT devices or DFT-E devices acting as CUT devices.

The 3174 can support the 3290 via SNA/SDLC.

Regards,

-JCR-