Discussion:
Tapeless delivery
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Timothy Sipples
2018-04-26 11:07:26 UTC
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May I ask a couple "naive" and slightly impolite questions here?

Do Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Adobe, Symantec, VMware, SAS, or Red Hat (as
examples) ship you their software products and updates on tape cartridges?
I presume your organization is using at least one software product from at
least one of these vendors. Somehow your organization has been able to
accept software product delivery on CDs, DVDs, and/or electronically...and
has for literally decades. The CD format is about 3 decades old as an
available format, and CDs utterly dominated software distribution when
vendors typically ended diskette (floppy disk) distribution.

Have you looked into what your colleagues have been doing for the past 20+
years? How are the other parts of your organization coping? They are,
somehow, and they have been for literally decades. Maybe somebody could
point out that fact?
DVD’s/CDROMS have an affinity to getting lost and you
cannot put a sticker on it (on the sleeve yes) but
not on the physical device.
No, that's just not correct. You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs! Avery
is among the many vendors that sell them. See here for example:

https://www.avery.com/products/labels/usage/cd-~-dvd-labels-~-inserts

You can even run CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc labels through laser and inkjet
printers. In fact, there are some inkjet printers that can print *directly*
onto discs. Then you don't even have to attach labels! See here for
example:

https://epson.com/direct-cd-dvd-printing

You can even buy genuine Sharpie brand pens to write directly on discs:

https://www.amazon.com/Sharpie-Permanent-Markers-Black-37035PP/dp/B000PXJ26A

....I'm utterly mystified. Yes, OK, you have to use a DVD reader instead of
a tape drive. There's a media change and a drive change...and so what?
Media and drive changes are also nothing new since there have been multiple
tape cartridge format changes in the past decades, and you're assuredly not
using a 20+ year old parallel channel attached tape drive to read what IBM
is sending today. IBM stopped shipping 7-track, 9-track, 3480, and 3490
tape cartridges a long, long time ago.

*Hypothetically* you could probably hire a trusted intermediary firm,
staffed only with citizens of Country X with security clearance level Y, to
accept DVD or electronic delivery from IBM, write those products to tape
cartridges, then ship you those tapes. (In armored cars?) I guess that'd
"work." If you do pursue that Rube Goldberg method, just get in touch with
IBM through official channels to make sure IBM is OK with the arrangement.
This is copyrighted and licensed software, after all, so that approach
would require IBM's permission. (And permission from other vendors if
you're trying to do the same thing with their software products.)

....Or just find the people who are already dealing with every other
vendor's software products, and do what they're doing and have been doing
for decades.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2018-04-26 12:05:46 UTC
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Do ... <vendors> ... ship you their software products and updates on tape cartridges?
Not now these days. Last one I received was just before 2013 when we still have a tape robot. Just a little double check of that write-only tab and a fast iebcopy job and you're in.
You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs!
This is what I do on my CDs and DVDs when making double/triple backups! I recycle those stickers which came with those 90 mm stiffies (also called 3.5 inch stiffies).


Ok: pre-Friday Trivia - Who of you worked with those 200mm floppies when reconfigure those 3270 terminals on a 3272/3275 or similar control unit?

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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John McKown
2018-04-26 13:56:21 UTC
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On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 7:07 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht <
Post by Timothy Sipples
Do ... <vendors> ... ship you their software products and updates on tape
cartridges?
Not now these days. Last one I received was just before 2013 when we still
have a tape robot. Just a little double check of that write-only tab and a
fast iebcopy job and you're in.
You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs!
This is what I do on my CDs and DVDs when making double/triple backups! I
recycle those stickers which came with those 90 mm stiffies (also called
3.5 inch stiffies).
Ok: pre-Friday Trivia - Who of you worked with those 200mm floppies when
reconfigure those 3270 terminals on a 3272/3275 or similar control unit?
​Yep. I also had one (called a 8 inch floppy here in the States)​ for a
home computer which ran CP/M-80. I still have it. It contains DR-Research's
Macro Assembler.
Post by Timothy Sipples
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
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Carmen Vitullo
2018-04-26 14:03:43 UTC
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I've worked on 'THOSE' controler and used those large floppies, we had a 'test' controller I guess you could say to configure other controller throughout the company, yeah what a blast :(



Carmen Vitullo

----- Original Message -----

From: "Elardus Engelbrecht" <***@SITA.CO.ZA>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 7:07:09 AM
Subject: Re: Tapeless delivery
Do ... <vendors> ... ship you their software products and updates on tape cartridges?
Not now these days. Last one I received was just before 2013 when we still have a tape robot. Just a little double check of that write-only tab and a fast iebcopy job and you're in.
You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs!
This is what I do on my CDs and DVDs when making double/triple backups! I recycle those stickers which came with those 90 mm stiffies (also called 3.5 inch stiffies).


Ok: pre-Friday Trivia - Who of you worked with those 200mm floppies when reconfigure those 3270 terminals on a 3272/3275 or similar control unit?

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-04-26 19:11:44 UTC
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Post by Timothy Sipples
May I ask a couple "naive" and slightly impolite questions here?
...
Have you looked into what youc colleagues have been doing for the past 20+
years? How are the other parts of your organization coping? They are,
somehow, and they have been for literally decades. Maybe somebody could
point out that fact?
I kinda wonder. NDA says we'll never know. Maybe they have nothing on their
desks but real 3278s.

And what feeds their z? Hordes of data entry people transcribing from paper via
real 3278s, all inside the security perimeter? And what goes out?

I'm trying to envision.
Post by Timothy Sipples
...
No, that's just not correct. You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs! Avery
https://www.avery.com/products/labels/usage/cd-~-dvd-labels-~-inserts
Fun when they come loose in the drive.
Post by Timothy Sipples
... In fact, there are some inkjet printers that can print *directly*
onto discs. Then you don't even have to attach labels! See here for
https://epson.com/direct-cd-dvd-printing
Better. But then you can't re-use the CD-RW.
Post by Timothy Sipples
https://www.amazon.com/Sharpie-Permanent-Markers-Black-37035PP/dp/B000PXJ26A
Fun fact: The optical recordiing medium is near the top surface of the CD, not
near the bottom where the laser is. This means any scratches are out of focus.

-- gil

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Edward Gould
2018-04-27 06:05:13 UTC
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Post by Timothy Sipples
DVD’s/CDROMS have an affinity to getting lost and you
cannot put a sticker on it (on the sleeve yes) but
not on the physical device.
I did and I stand by it. I have gummed up many cdroms and have had a friend who would get it out. Its about a 50/50 success/failure rate for me. As a Practical matter if I don’t use them they continue to work.
I once amazed myself one day as I had a PS2 and had ordered a power XXXXX (its been 20+ years and I don’ remember the name of the part but it WAS LARGE. The interaction were easy and clear : undo this and this and this cable and two other small tasks and lift. The unit came straight out. I put the replacement in and reconnected the wires and pressed the handle and it went in without hesitation. I was amazed at how easy the PS2’s were to replace parts on. The PC bootted up and it just worked. I never tried it again though as other PC/macs I have had are way to difficult.
Post by Timothy Sipples
No, that's just not correct. You *can* put stickers on CDs and DVDs! Avery
https://www.avery.com/products/labels/usage/cd-~-dvd-labels-~-inserts <https://www.avery.com/products/labels/usage/cd-~-dvd-labels-~-inserts>
You can even run CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc labels through laser and inkjet
printers. In fact, there are some inkjet printers that can print *directly*
onto discs. Then you don't even have to attach labels! See here for
https://epson.com/direct-cd-dvd-printing <https://epson.com/direct-cd-dvd-printing>
My Friend had a blu ray recorder and did not use labels either.
Post by Timothy Sipples
https://www.amazon.com/Sharpie-Permanent-Markers-Black-37035PP/dp/B000PXJ26A <https://www.amazon.com/Sharpie-Permanent-Markers-Black-37035PP/dp/B000PXJ26A>I agree as I have done so. The issue is that trying to print a label with a barcode on IME just does not work
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Timothy Sipples
2018-04-27 14:41:53 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Fun when they come loose in the drive.
Which "never" happens with high or medium quality labels. Moreover, in the
extremely unlikely event it does happen, it's not a new problem. If a label
shakes loose from a tape cartridge, much worse things can happen in terms
of cost and repair/replacement complexity in tape drives and tape
libraries.

Moreover, to my knowledge the label surface area on a CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc
is larger than it is on a 3592 series tape cartridge, and a disc label
doesn't have any corners. It's circular, not square or rectangular. If
you'd like to commission an engineering study to estimate the probability
of sticker unsticking incidents when you have more versus less of the
sticky surface, and a circular sticker with no corners, I suppose you
could. Of course, *somehow* a label size change (much less an *enlargement*
of the sticky area and the deletion of corners) wasn't a problem when the
physical size of the tape cartridge (and before that reel-to-reel tape
spool) changed, several times, in past physical media progressions, plural.
Just pull your sticker stickiness engineering study off the shelf from the
last time the cartridge sized changed. :-)

Then Paul Gilmartin commented about printers that print directly onto
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Better. But then you can't re-use the CD-RW.
(a) That's not this use case. This use case involves receiving IBM software
products and updates on physical media. IBM's physical media are already
physically labeled, they will continue to be physically labeled, and thank
goodness they are physically labeled. Any further physical labeling
requirements on these discs would be subsequent to/in addition to IBM's
labeling. You can continue using tape cartridges for your own physical
media exchange needs within your organization, and between your
organization and any others that'll accept them.

(b) And no, that's just not correct. You can reuse IBM's physical media in
the sense of physically relabeling them, in additive form. You can run
discs as many times as you want through such printers. Just print in any
blank space without filling the whole surface of the disc, then, upon
subsequent print runs, print in some other space that's still free. Repeat
as often as space allows. For example, if you want to print "Received on
May 1, 2018" in any blank space that IBM didn't print on, fine. Then run
the disc through the printer again to add "Loaded on May 2, 2018" or
whatever. All fine, perfectly fine.

....Congratulations to the "heroes" of this world working so hard, so
diligently to imagine problems that don't actually exist in reality (and
probably never existed), without putting any effort into imagining how to
solve those imagined problems. I'm sure those "heroes" are incredibly
valuable to their organizations. I hope they're paid well. :-)

[But I'm not picking on you, Paul. Not yet, anyway. :-)]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-04-27 15:15:47 UTC
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... The data that is in these files are only known by the President of the company and I think one VP. The President’s boss work’s in another country and the board is scattered around the world, if I met one in the hallway I would not know him. The “board” is only known by the President. Where the money comes from that pays us, I have no clue as we do not (AFAIK) publish or see or exchange anything that would bring $$ into the company. All I know is that everyones gets paid (well) and there hasn’t been a person dismissed/fired/let go/asked to find another job.
Nor terminated with extreme prejudice?

I'd say they were mining Bitcoin except that requires a network connetion.

-- gil

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J R
2018-04-27 17:59:47 UTC
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... The data that is in these files are only known by the President of the company and I think one VP. The President’s boss work’s in another country and the board is scattered around the world, if I met one in the hallway I would not know him. The “board” is only known by the President. Where the money comes from that pays us, I have no clue as we do not (AFAIK) publish or see or exchange anything that would bring $$ into the company. All I know is that everyones gets paid (well) and there hasn’t been a person dismissed/fired/let go/asked to find another job.
It's inconceivable that you expect us to believe such rubbish. You are not an employee, you don't get paid, and yet you can waltz in every day and play in the sandbox. Does this appear to be an ultra secure environment? I don't think so!

BTW the asylum called; if you leave now you'll be just in time for a story before bed.

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Edward Gould
2018-04-28 08:24:32 UTC
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Post by J R
... The data that is in these files are only known by the President of the company and I think one VP. The President’s boss work’s in another country and the board is scattered around the world, if I met one in the hallway I would not know him. The “board” is only known by the President. Where the money comes from that pays us, I have no clue as we do not (AFAIK) publish or see or exchange anything that would bring $$ into the company. All I know is that everyones gets paid (well) and there hasn’t been a person dismissed/fired/let go/asked to find another job.
It's inconceivable that you expect us to believe such rubbish. You are not an employee, you don't get paid, and yet you can waltz in every day and play in the sandbox. Does this appear to be an ultra secure environment? I don't think so!
BTW the asylum called; if you leave now you'll be just in time for a story before bed.
I don’t care what you do or do not believe.
I work in this situation . I have worked in other crazy companies, this one is security conscious. Others have each their own crazy world, luckily in the past it was reasonable to a point. This one seems to have a privacy issue. The company is legit and they have the connections to prove it. I live and work in this environment for free, they only thing in real money that it cost me is gas/food. I have enough money to keep me doing what I have done in the past. These people are pleasant to work with. In the past I have worked in several hostile work environments, this is interesting and allows me to try things out that in other companies I would be shutdown. The people are really nice and it nice to work in an environment that learning is encouraged. I will continue to work here for a few more years and then really retire.

Ed
I could write several volumes of bad companies I have worked for, This company is actually fun to work for, I wake up in the AM and I am happy to go to work. The bad companies are starting to disappear into the bitbucket. I enjoy retirement doing what I did before, wouldn’t you like to have something fun and interesting to do in your retirement?

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Mike Schwab
2018-05-10 22:01:06 UTC
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https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/10/ibm_bans_all_removable_storage_for_all_staff_everywhere/
Not sure what hoops you will have to jump through to send any data on
any media soon.
Post by Edward Gould
Post by J R
... The data that is in these files are only known by the President of the company and I think one VP. The President’s boss work’s in another country and the board is scattered around the world, if I met one in the hallway I would not know him. The “board” is only known by the President. Where the money comes from that pays us, I have no clue as we do not (AFAIK) publish or see or exchange anything that would bring $$ into the company. All I know is that everyones gets paid (well) and there hasn’t been a person dismissed/fired/let go/asked to find another job.
It's inconceivable that you expect us to believe such rubbish. You are not an employee, you don't get paid, and yet you can waltz in every day and play in the sandbox. Does this appear to be an ultra secure environment? I don't think so!
BTW the asylum called; if you leave now you'll be just in time for a story before bed.
I don’t care what you do or do not believe.
I work in this situation . I have worked in other crazy companies, this one is security conscious. Others have each their own crazy world, luckily in the past it was reasonable to a point. This one seems to have a privacy issue. The company is legit and they have the connections to prove it. I live and work in this environment for free, they only thing in real money that it cost me is gas/food. I have enough money to keep me doing what I have done in the past. These people are pleasant to work with. In the past I have worked in several hostile work environments, this is interesting and allows me to try things out that in other companies I would be shutdown. The people are really nice and it nice to work in an environment that learning is encouraged. I will continue to work here for a few more years and then really retire.
Ed
I could write several volumes of bad companies I have worked for, This company is actually fun to work for, I wake up in the AM and I am happy to go to work. The bad companies are starting to disappear into the bitbucket. I enjoy retirement doing what I did before, wouldn’t you like to have something fun and interesting to do in your retirement?
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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