Discussion:
Nice article about MF and Government
(too old to reply)
Rob Schramm
2017-06-04 00:11:21 UTC
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https://www.fedscoop.com/what-is-legacy-it-and-how-scared-should-we-be-of-it/

Rob Schramm
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Rob Schramm

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Edward Gould
2017-06-04 01:00:03 UTC
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Post by Rob Schramm
https://www.fedscoop.com/what-is-legacy-it-and-how-scared-should-we-be-of-it/
Rob Schramm
--
Rob:

Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From my prospective not a recommendation at all.

Ed
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zMan
2017-06-04 02:12:31 UTC
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What does that mean? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and all that
-- just because you don't like the source doesn't mean it makes sense to
diss it unless you also disagree with it. Do you?
Post by Edward Gould
Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From my
prospective not a recommendation at all.
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Charles Mills
2017-06-04 02:47:43 UTC
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Amen! Or more specifically, just because you worked for a company that had a license or pricing dispute with Compuware once upon a time does not mean that everyone who works there today has nothing good to offer.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of zMan
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 7:14 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Nice article about MF and Government

What does that mean? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and all that
-- just because you don't like the source doesn't mean it makes sense to diss it unless you also disagree with it. Do you?
Post by Edward Gould
Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From
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zMan
2017-06-04 14:18:23 UTC
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Rob/Charles/Ed:I should add that I'm no fan of Compuware either, and have
seen plenty of self-serving stuff they've written that went way beyond
saying anything objectively useful. I did not find this article to be in
that category, hence my comment.

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Clark Morris
2017-06-04 22:11:53 UTC
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[Default] On 4 Jun 2017 07:18:23 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
Post by zMan
Rob/Charles/Ed:I should add that I'm no fan of Compuware either, and have
seen plenty of self-serving stuff they've written that went way beyond
saying anything objectively useful. I did not find this article to be in
that category, hence my comment.
Regardless of the validity of the article, it comes from an observer
who makes his living supporting the mainframe environment. I suspect
that if the same things had been written by someone outside the
mainframe community, they would carry a lot more weight. As someone
who would like to see the mainframe usage grow, I would confirmation
of its place by people who aren't wedded to any given platform.

Clark Morris

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Edward Gould
2017-06-05 20:14:01 UTC
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Post by zMan
What does that mean? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and all that
-- just because you don't like the source doesn't mean it makes sense to
diss it unless you also disagree with it. Do you?
Post by Edward Gould
Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From my
prospective not a recommendation at all.
ZMan:
I disagree generally with the tone of the article and some specifics
1. A lot of Government IT facilities are in a state of neglect. By neglect, I mean than funding year after year after year has been cut. What is left is at best a wish mosh of equipment/software/man power/management.
2. Even bringing top “the Cloud” to me is a red herring and should be tossed in the dustbin.
3. There is no clear one size fits all.
4. Since 4 of the items I mentioned above have been so neglected that (the tax payer should be ashamed) .
5. I have been in several governmental data centers. Some of them are a disgrace and should be put out of their misery. Some are decent and only need some modernization. One of the DC's I visited had operators smoking and partly used boxed paper laying all over the place, in the computer room, the place was unbelievable.
6. I know I can’t speak for all of the cases but the ones I can either say get rid of or modernize the MF. The ones that PC’s can help are the smallish type DC’s.
7. Even *IF* done, the funding will not be reliable and the DC’s will fall back in disrepair in 5-7 years. The politicians will find a way to squeeze the well dry, once again.
8. There is no incentive for management to be either the BEST or at least better. This in turn leaves other three open items above to going down hill .
9. Working for the government in the past in most governmental DC’s has been a carreer limiting factor. That needs to be improved.
10. Some DC’s are so Civil Service oriented that in itself is self destructive.
Those are the high points. I don’t think the author has a good grasp on how governmental DC’s operate.

Ed
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Rob Schramm
2017-06-04 02:40:19 UTC
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Ed,

Typically I would agree. Most of my experience with Compuware in the past
has been about high prices and little negotiating. But has been a
Mainframe cheerleader with the Devops stuff. Always seems on message. I
have been enjoying his posts for a while. Looking forward to working on a
project that is or wants to use some of the Compuware "new stuff" for
development.

Until then *rah* *rah* *rah* go team!

And my nod to the hash taggers..

#kickinthepants #gracehopperlives #cobol3k #cantlearncobolgetoutofthekitchen

Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
https://www.fedscoop.com/what-is-legacy-it-and-how-scared-should-we-be-of-it/
Post by Rob Schramm
Rob Schramm
--
Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From my
prospective not a recommendation at all.
Ed
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Rob Schramm

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John McKown
2017-06-05 20:45:13 UTC
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Post by Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
Ed,
Typically I would agree. Most of my experience with Compuware in the
past
Post by Rob Schramm
has been about high prices and little negotiating. But has been a
Mainframe cheerleader with the Devops stuff. Always seems on message. I
have been enjoying his posts for a while. Looking forward to working on
a
Post by Rob Schramm
project that is or wants to use some of the Compuware "new stuff" for
development.
Until then *rah* *rah* *rah* go team!
And my nod to the hash taggers..
#kickinthepants #gracehopperlives #cobol3k #
cantlearncobolgetoutofthekitchen
Post by Rob Schramm
Rob Schramm
Rob,
I have seen so many companies screwed by Compuware, their name is dirt as
well as CA. They have literally poisoned the well for ever after, to me.
See my reply earlier. for my 10 points.
Ken P: And right they should be questioned. Between CA and Compuware they
have essentially bled the IT community and have suckled on them far to
long. I have lost track of the promises that CA and Compare have made in
the past and have been screwed every time, either by pricing or one
specific case causing a migration of an OS due to their lack of keeping up
with year old technology. In CA’s case I had to change one of their modules
so it would work with two year old technology IBM code. They wanted my code
but told them to go scratch as they delayed the migration. In CA’s case
they bought two vendors and their support for the one product went to hell.
We had to find a replacement product and pay for something that CA
orphaned. Another CASE with CA, I have been called in at all hours to
support some of their crappy code. I do not like staying up all night in
support of a vendor that can’t get its ducks in a line (one product talking
to another product). We were *NOT* bleeding edge as I said above at least a
year behind (sometimes more). As I said vendors lie and the system
programmer gets caught in the mess. I HATE WORKING all night.
Ed
​I, personally, don't much against either CA or Compuware. I do know that,
especially in CA's case, they often acquire software and put it in the
"cash cow" status. That is, barely maintain it while increasing the
maintenance fees. Or, in some cases, making it "functionally stabilized",
but still requiring a "run time" license. I guess that we're in a strange
state because our Compuware contract was for a permanent execution license.
So we are running AbendAid "for free" so long as we stay on z/OS 1.12. ​The
same is true of the little BMC software (Mainview / CMF) that we use.

I have actually considered whether it would be "interesting" to write some
sort of "job scheduler" on z/OS. I don't have too much trouble with
figuring out the internals to submit & track jobs. The problem is the UX &
UI design. I fear my approach would be "by a programmer, for other
programmers".
--
Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
encryption standard and they came up with ...

Student: EBCDIC!

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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zMan
2017-06-05 22:05:24 UTC
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Ed: Those points seem valid, at least subjectively (i.e., one might
disagree with them, but they do make *a* case that the article is crap).
But the Compuware aspect is still not relevant -- none of your points are
related to the Compuware-ness.

Jeez, I sound like a Compuware shill here. Really, I'm not. I've had to
deal with ABEND-AID a few times, and my first recommendation is always
"Turn it off", because all it does is hide useful details AFAICT. And I've
heard plenty of other war stories.

Just seeking truth and beauty here...
Post by Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
Ed,
Typically I would agree. Most of my experience with Compuware in the
past
Post by Rob Schramm
has been about high prices and little negotiating. But has been a
Mainframe cheerleader with the Devops stuff. Always seems on
message. I
Post by Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
have been enjoying his posts for a while. Looking forward to working
on
Post by Rob Schramm
a
Post by Rob Schramm
project that is or wants to use some of the Compuware "new stuff" for
development.
Until then *rah* *rah* *rah* go team!
And my nod to the hash taggers..
#kickinthepants #gracehopperlives #cobol3k #
cantlearncobolgetoutofthekitchen
Post by Rob Schramm
Rob Schramm
Rob,
I have seen so many companies screwed by Compuware, their name is dirt as
well as CA. They have literally poisoned the well for ever after, to me.
See my reply earlier. for my 10 points.
Ken P: And right they should be questioned. Between CA and Compuware
they
Post by Rob Schramm
have essentially bled the IT community and have suckled on them far to
long. I have lost track of the promises that CA and Compare have made in
the past and have been screwed every time, either by pricing or one
specific case causing a migration of an OS due to their lack of keeping
up
Post by Rob Schramm
with year old technology. In CA’s case I had to change one of their
modules
Post by Rob Schramm
so it would work with two year old technology IBM code. They wanted my
code
Post by Rob Schramm
but told them to go scratch as they delayed the migration. In CA’s case
they bought two vendors and their support for the one product went to
hell.
Post by Rob Schramm
We had to find a replacement product and pay for something that CA
orphaned. Another CASE with CA, I have been called in at all hours to
support some of their crappy code. I do not like staying up all night in
support of a vendor that can’t get its ducks in a line (one product
talking
Post by Rob Schramm
to another product). We were *NOT* bleeding edge as I said above at
least a
Post by Rob Schramm
year behind (sometimes more). As I said vendors lie and the system
programmer gets caught in the mess. I HATE WORKING all night.
Ed
​I, personally, don't much against either CA or Compuware. I do know that,
especially in CA's case, they often acquire software and put it in the
"cash cow" status. That is, barely maintain it while increasing the
maintenance fees. Or, in some cases, making it "functionally stabilized",
but still requiring a "run time" license. I guess that we're in a strange
state because our Compuware contract was for a permanent execution license.
So we are running AbendAid "for free" so long as we stay on z/OS 1.12. ​The
same is true of the little BMC software (Mainview / CMF) that we use.
I have actually considered whether it would be "interesting" to write some
sort of "job scheduler" on z/OS. I don't have too much trouble with
figuring out the internals to submit & track jobs. The problem is the UX &
UI design. I fear my approach would be "by a programmer, for other
programmers".
--
Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
encryption standard and they came up with ...
Student: EBCDIC!
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

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Edward Gould
2017-06-06 01:47:03 UTC
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Post by zMan
Ed: Those points seem valid, at least subjectively (i.e., one might
disagree with them, but they do make *a* case that the article is crap).
But the Compuware aspect is still not relevant -- none of your points are
related to the Compuware-ness.
Jeez, I sound like a Compuware shill here. Really, I'm not. I've had to
deal with ABEND-AID a few times, and my first recommendation is always
"Turn it off", because all it does is hide useful details AFAICT. And I've
heard plenty of other war stories.
Just seeking truth and beauty here…
Man:

I might agree with you if it were just one sales type I was talking about. I am talking 20++ years experience trying to deal with this company. They have done everything I can think of except steal. Cheated is a hard proof but one time when I was dealing with billing (Thank god never again) I caught what I thought was chicanery. I called the company attorney and went through the bill in question thoroughly and he agreed with me. But as he pointed out it was for less than $100.00 and the amount spent trying to get it back was not worth the company’s time and money. We let it slide but kept an eye on the company forever.
We have on going issues with abendaid as well. My main bitch about it was that it at time never seem to captured the data needed, overall it was a so so product that I would be loathed to recommend to anyone. There were other COMPUWARE products that I disliked intensely. To COMPUWARE’s credit they did offer pretty decent support. Their manuals were at best average and never had exactly the examples I really needed. Now I know its not realistic to have all permutations, but it was strange that practically everyone I needed wasn’t there.
I will shut up here and only say I hated the CPU SERIAL number issue. At one place where I worked we had new CPU’s show up bi weekly and it got to be such a hassle.

Ed

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Mike Schwab
2017-06-06 03:49:10 UTC
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http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/cookbook/bsppilot.html


On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 3:46 PM, John McKown
Post by John McKown
Post by Rob Schramm
Post by Rob Schramm
Ed,
Typically I would agree. Most of my experience with Compuware in the
past
Post by Rob Schramm
has been about high prices and little negotiating. But has been a
Mainframe cheerleader with the Devops stuff. Always seems on message. I
have been enjoying his posts for a while. Looking forward to working on
a
Post by Rob Schramm
project that is or wants to use some of the Compuware "new stuff" for
development.
Until then *rah* *rah* *rah* go team!
And my nod to the hash taggers..
#kickinthepants #gracehopperlives #cobol3k #
cantlearncobolgetoutofthekitchen
Post by Rob Schramm
Rob Schramm
Rob,
I have seen so many companies screwed by Compuware, their name is dirt as
well as CA. They have literally poisoned the well for ever after, to me.
See my reply earlier. for my 10 points.
Ken P: And right they should be questioned. Between CA and Compuware they
have essentially bled the IT community and have suckled on them far to
long. I have lost track of the promises that CA and Compare have made in
the past and have been screwed every time, either by pricing or one
specific case causing a migration of an OS due to their lack of keeping up
with year old technology. In CA’s case I had to change one of their modules
so it would work with two year old technology IBM code. They wanted my code
but told them to go scratch as they delayed the migration. In CA’s case
they bought two vendors and their support for the one product went to hell.
We had to find a replacement product and pay for something that CA
orphaned. Another CASE with CA, I have been called in at all hours to
support some of their crappy code. I do not like staying up all night in
support of a vendor that can’t get its ducks in a line (one product talking
to another product). We were *NOT* bleeding edge as I said above at least a
year behind (sometimes more). As I said vendors lie and the system
programmer gets caught in the mess. I HATE WORKING all night.
Ed
I, personally, don't much against either CA or Compuware. I do know that,
especially in CA's case, they often acquire software and put it in the
"cash cow" status. That is, barely maintain it while increasing the
maintenance fees. Or, in some cases, making it "functionally stabilized",
but still requiring a "run time" license. I guess that we're in a strange
state because our Compuware contract was for a permanent execution license.
So we are running AbendAid "for free" so long as we stay on z/OS 1.12. The
same is true of the little BMC software (Mainview / CMF) that we use.
I have actually considered whether it would be "interesting" to write some
sort of "job scheduler" on z/OS. I don't have too much trouble with
figuring out the internals to submit & track jobs. The problem is the UX &
UI design. I fear my approach would be "by a programmer, for other
programmers".
--
Prof: So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
encryption standard and they came up with ...
Student: EBCDIC!
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Edward Gould
2017-06-07 17:16:02 UTC
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Making software purchase decisions based on emotional reactions to how the vendor spends its marketing dollars is not a recipe for IT success.
Compuware may well have determined after a long and detailed analysis that the Super Bowl was a cost-effective medium for them. I don't know, but I suspect your management did not know either.
It's great that they found a cost-effective replacement that worked for them. They should have undeertaken the search based on their business needs, not based on how Compuware spends its advertising budget, and presumably years sooner.
I do like "Super Bowel" however.
Charles
Charles:
Well, you are parially right. We had been on a cost cutting adventure and COMPUWARE wouldn’t budge. The management obviously did not like their money going to fund Super Bowl TV ads as they wouldn’t even talk about pricing.
IMO when a company is intansient in negotiations and then goes out and spends major $$ for an advertisement that in reality had no business on an TV ad in the Super Bowl . They react and not nicely. This was their way of getting COMPUWARE’s attention. And it did, they lost major revenue then and in the future as COMPUWARE was ban from the company from then on.

Ed


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d***@gmail.com
2017-06-05 20:24:07 UTC
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FYI...Legacy also includes the outdated Windows servers. Mainframe is still the most secure server.
Gabe Goldberg
2017-06-10 15:27:54 UTC
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I have no dog in this fight -- never worked for government, never dealt
with Compuware, don't remember problems with CA. Issues with other
vendors, sure, as have been abundantly described here. Closest I came to
gov work was 14 years at Mitre Corporation -- not-for-profit government
research think tank, somewhat subject to gov procurement rules but
independent corporation. And I'm sure not arguing with the various
"voices of experience".

But I've profiled a couple gov agencies technology and I read
http://www.govtech.com/ -- which highlights mostly good news (many
interesting/innovative projects highlighted), though they also sure
cover disasters and project failures. And half the time they're
badmouthing legacy systems. I'm just noting that there's a spectrum of
competence and quality in gov, same as elsewhere.
Post by zMan
What does that mean? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day and
all that
Post by zMan
-- just because you don't like the source doesn't mean it makes sense to
diss it unless you also disagree with it. Do you?
Post by Edward Gould
Thanks, unfortunately it was written by a person from Compuware. From my
prospective not a recommendation at all.
ZMan:
I disagree generally with the tone of the article and some specifics
1. A lot of Government IT facilities are in a state of neglect. By
neglect, I mean than funding year after year after year has been cut.
What is left is at best a wish mosh of equipment/software/man
power/management.
2. Even bringing top “the Cloud” to me is a red herring and should be
tossed in the dustbin.
3. There is no clear one size fits all.
4. Since 4 of the items I mentioned above have been so neglected that
(the tax payer should be ashamed) .
5. I have been in several governmental data centers. Some of them are a
disgrace and should be put out of their misery. Some are decent and only
need some modernization. One of the DC's I visited had operators smoking
and partly used boxed paper laying all over the place, in the computer
room, the place was unbelievable.
6. I know I can’t speak for all of the cases but the ones I can either
say get rid of or modernize the MF. The ones that PC’s can help are the
smallish type DC’s.
7. Even *IF* done, the funding will not be reliable and the DC’s will
fall back in disrepair in 5-7 years. The politicians will find a way to
squeeze the well dry, once again.
8. There is no incentive for management to be either the BEST or at
least better. This in turn leaves other three open items above to going
down hill .
9. Working for the government in the past in most governmental DC’s has
been a carreer limiting factor. That needs to be improved.
10. Some DC’s are so Civil Service oriented that in itself is self
destructive.
Those are the high points. I don’t think the author has a good grasp on
how governmental DC’s operate.
--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ***@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2017-06-10 16:45:17 UTC
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Post by Gabe Goldberg
But I've profiled a couple gov agencies technology and I read
http://www.govtech.com/ -- which highlights mostly good news (many
interesting/innovative projects highlighted), though they also sure
cover disasters and project failures. And half the time they're
badmouthing legacy systems. I'm just noting that there's a spectrum of
competence and quality in gov, same as elsewhere.
AMEX was in competition with KKR for private equity take-over of RJR and
KKR wins. KKR runs into trouble and hires away the president of AMEX to
turn it around. IBM has gone into the red and was being reorganized into
the 13 "baby bells" in preparation for breaking up the company. The
board then hires away the former president of AMEX to reverse the
breakup and resurrect the company ... using some of the same techniques
used at RJR
http://www.ibmemployee.com/RetirementHeist.shtml

The former president of AMEX then leaves IBM to head up another large
private equity company that will acquire a large beltway bandit that
employes Snowden. There was enormous uptic in gov. outsourcing last
decade, especially to private equity owned companies ... in
intelligence, 70% of the budget and over half the people
http://www.investingdaily.com/17693/spies-like-us/

private equity owned companies are under intense pressure to cut corners
and do what ever is necessary to generate profits for their owners. In
the case of outsourced security clearances, they were found to be
filling out the paper work and not actually doing the background checks.
Companies in private equity mill are sometimes compared to "house
flipping", except rather than paying off the mortgage as part of the
flip, the loan to buy the company stays on the company's books after the
sale. Combination of factors contribute to over half of corporate
defaults are companies that are in (or previously in) the private equity
mill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons.html?_r=0

this has also contributed to the rapid spreading "success of failure"
culture ... beltway bandits (especially private equity owned
subsidiaries) get more revenue from a series of failures
http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04/the-success-of-failure/24107/

This all sounds cynical, because it is. Whether or not it's deliberate
is another matter. But you don't have to believe that people consciously
fail to recognize the windfall it brings. Even if they don't know why,
there's a reason people keep making the same mistakes: Failure is one of
the most successful things going.

... snip ...

which also includes a long list of failed legacy system modernization
efforts. Badmouthing legacy systems might just be obfuscation and
misdirection regarding the real source of the problems.

disclaimer: early in the century we gat a call asking us to respond to
an unclassifed BAA (by IC-ARDA, since renamed IARPA) that was about to
close and nobody else had responding to (basically said that the tools
they have didn't do the job). We get response in and then have some
meetings showing we could do what was needed and then it goes silent and
hear nothing more. It wasn't until the above article that we realize
that what was going on (although we wondered why the agency had allowed
the BAA to be released in the first place, possibly some internal
politics were still being played out).
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Edward Gould
2017-06-10 19:36:28 UTC
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Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
private equity owned companies are under intense pressure to cut corners
and do what ever is necessary to generate profits for their owners. In
the case of outsourced security clearances, they were found to be
filling out the paper work and not actually doing the background checks.
Companies in private equity mill are sometimes compared to "house
flipping", except rather than paying off the mortgage as part of the
flip, the loan to buy the company stays on the company's books after the
sale. Combination of factors contribute to over half of corporate
defaults are companies that are in (or previously in) the private equity
mill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons.html?_r=0 <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons.html?_r=0>
I don’t want to say this but it is appropriate here. Sounds like the Trump Administration.
Sorry had to say it.

Ed


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