Discussion:
SYS3 datasets
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Tony Thigpen
2017-09-25 02:16:57 UTC
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We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen

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Ronald Kristel
2017-09-25 03:08:25 UTC
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We have some (IBM) products and no third party software under SYS3. There are no rules here to differentiate between the two in SYS% HLQ.

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Ronald Kristel
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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Tony Thigpen <***@VSE2PDF.COM>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 4:18:05 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SYS3 datasets

We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?

--
Tony Thigpen

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Eric Mendelson
2017-09-25 11:40:08 UTC
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This is only a convention we use sys4

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Ronald Kristel
We have some (IBM) products and no third party software under SYS3. There are no rules here to differentiate between the two in SYS% HLQ.
-
Ronald Kristel
________________________________
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 4:18:05 AM
Subject: SYS3 datasets
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Steve Horein
2017-09-25 03:49:42 UTC
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The shop I grew up in used SYS3 for third party software.
We later changed to a SYST/SYSP convention to differentiate between
smpe/source (SYST.vendor.product.version.llq), test
(SYST.vendor.product.llq), and prod (SYSP.vendor.product.llq).
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did
not follow such a rule.)
Post by Tony Thigpen
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Brian Westerman
2017-09-25 04:26:27 UTC
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Would that there were some sort of standard. :)

I have worked with literally hundreds of sites and migrated and supported them for years and there is no "standard" that they all (or even any large subset of them) follow when it comes to naming 3rd party datasets.

Some use OEM1(,2,3,) some use the vendor name (CA, BMC, SAG, LRS, ORACLE), some use the second level name (SYS1.CA, SYS1.SYZYGY), some use a variation on the word "VENDOR" (VNDR, VND, V), the only common thread seems to be that there is no common thread.

If your Systems Programmer wants to use SYS3, then that's great, although it's not really going to help to have a SYS3.LINKLIB if you can't tell who's linklib it is. But maybe he uses SYS3.vendor.library.name, in which case it's not much better than any other alternative.

Possibly he wants to keep everything in the master catalog, or some specific catalog, but he could just as well give them all different names and keep the aliases in a "CATALOG.VENDOR" catalog and have the same outcome.

Actually, there really isn't any reason to have them all use the same HLQ, unless that's what he wants. If it makes his system easier for him to maintain to keep it that way, then no matter what anyone else thinks or says, he is going to do it that way and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Brian

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Paul Gilmartin
2017-09-25 04:38:27 UTC
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Post by Brian Westerman
Would that there were some sort of standard. :)
...
If your Systems Programmer wants to use SYS3, then that's great, although it's not really going to help to have a SYS3.LINKLIB if you can't tell who's linklib it is. But maybe he uses SYS3.vendor.library.name, in which case it's not much better than any other alternative.
Vendors ought to suggest installation paths for their software products.
SYS3.vendor.** seems like a good idea. Or incorporating the vendors'
registered element prefix.

Shops ought to follow those vendor suggestions:
o It allows trying samples in the vendor documents with less tailoring
of DD statements.
o It makes programmer skill sets more portable. (But management
might consider that a bad idea.)

-- gil

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Edward Gould
2017-09-25 06:32:10 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Brian Westerman
Would that there were some sort of standard. :)
...
If your Systems Programmer wants to use SYS3, then that's great, although it's not really going to help to have a SYS3.LINKLIB if you can't tell who's linklib it is. But maybe he uses SYS3.vendor.library.name, in which case it's not much better than any other alternative.
Vendors ought to suggest installation paths for their software products.
SYS3.vendor.** seems like a good idea. Or incorporating the vendors'
registered element prefix.
o It allows trying samples in the vendor documents with less tailoring
of DD statements.
o It makes programmer skill sets more portable. (But management
might consider that a bad idea.)
-- gil
Gil,

I am very bitter about some OEM products. I have been burned so many times by following their suggestions, that I just take their suggestion and improve upon it. I always make notes or have another sysprog in the install process next to me so they know what is going on at all times.

I have gotten to the point if I know something (bad) about the product and the user wants it and I hate it. I make sure it doesn’t get bought.

Ed
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Lizette Koehler
2017-09-25 06:21:12 UTC
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So conventions are on a shop basis. Whatever the shop wants to use, is the convention

I have known some shops to use this

SYS1CA for all CA Products
SYS1IBM for all IBM products
SYS1ORC for all Oracle products and so on

I have known some shops to use this

SYS1 - all IBM Products
SYS2 - Vendor A products
SYS3 - Vendor B products

And so on.

When they got to SYS9 - they began to uses SYSA

Some shops do

SYS1 - Only MCAT products then use second level qualifier to identify vendor - IBM CA etc

When some shops install Serverpac, they use CEE for LE, BPX, etc that is the names used by IBM

When some shops install Serverpac, they change the IBM names in server pac to shop standards - SYS1.CEE rather than CEE

Everything is based on what the shop standards are.

So bottom line, No Standard for naming convention. Each shop makes that determination. And that standard is affected by your SAF product and application naming convetions.


SYS3 is not a standard in the business to indicate a 3rd party vendor.


HTH

Lizette
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: SYS3 datasets
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did not
follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Wayne Bickerdike
2017-09-25 06:27:14 UTC
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We changed our philosophy recently.

SYS1 datasets on IPL volume and any needed for IPL.

We now have our CICS HLQ as SYS3 and MQ as SYS3. These both have a SYS1
alias to avoid JCL changes.

So for example, CICS alias is SYS1.CICSTS.SDFHLOAD points to
SYS3.CICSTS&CICSVER.SDFHLOAD (&CICSVER is a system symbol).
Post by Lizette Koehler
So conventions are on a shop basis. Whatever the shop wants to use, is the convention
I have known some shops to use this
SYS1CA for all CA Products
SYS1IBM for all IBM products
SYS1ORC for all Oracle products and so on
I have known some shops to use this
SYS1 - all IBM Products
SYS2 - Vendor A products
SYS3 - Vendor B products
And so on.
When they got to SYS9 - they began to uses SYSA
Some shops do
SYS1 - Only MCAT products then use second level qualifier to identify
vendor - IBM CA etc
When some shops install Serverpac, they use CEE for LE, BPX, etc that is
the names used by IBM
When some shops install Serverpac, they change the IBM names in server pac
to shop standards - SYS1.CEE rather than CEE
Everything is based on what the shop standards are.
So bottom line, No Standard for naming convention. Each shop makes that
determination. And that standard is affected by your SAF product and
application naming convetions.
SYS3 is not a standard in the business to indicate a 3rd party vendor.
HTH
Lizette
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: SYS3 datasets
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not
follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Wayne V. Bickerdike

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Edward Gould
2017-09-25 06:27:34 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
Tony:

It depends on the oem product. If I know the history of the product then its simple issue. Keep the sys3 datasets around for the life of the product. Some products I just do not trust and I play games with datasets. A *LONG* time ago I had a vendor that updated this one specific dataset everytime it ran. I did not want to get write authority to the users. I created a “test.product.update” and let the people update it. If it got clobbered which it invariable did I would copy over the sys3 dataset for that product “test.product.update” I won’t name the product as I had a loathing for them. I kept there midnight called to a minimum bu doing that.

Ed


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Wayne Bickerdike
2017-09-25 06:30:23 UTC
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We also use SYS1.CEE instead of IBMs supplied CEE HLQ. (grrr).

I like the IBM ADCD method of DFHnnn for CICS as HLQ etc.
Post by Tony Thigpen
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
Post by Tony Thigpen
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
It depends on the oem product. If I know the history of the product then
its simple issue. Keep the sys3 datasets around for the life of the
product. Some products I just do not trust and I play games with datasets.
A *LONG* time ago I had a vendor that updated this one specific dataset
everytime it ran. I did not want to get write authority to the users. I
created a “test.product.update” and let the people update it. If it got
clobbered which it invariable did I would copy over the sys3 dataset for
that product “test.product.update” I won’t name the product as I had a
loathing for them. I kept there midnight called to a minimum bu doing that.
Ed
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Bill Wilkie
2017-09-25 09:35:05 UTC
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Ed:


Did you find out why they were updating things each time they ran? I wonder if their updating had to do with keeping usage statistics.


Bill


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From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Edward Gould <***@COMCAST.NET>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 6:18 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
Tony:

It depends on the oem product. If I know the history of the product then its simple issue. Keep the sys3 datasets around for the life of the product. Some products I just do not trust and I play games with datasets. A *LONG* time ago I had a vendor that updated this one specific dataset everytime it ran. I did not want to get write authority to the users. I created a “test.product.update” and let the people update it. If it got clobbered which it invariable did I would copy over the sys3 dataset for that product “test.product.update” I won’t name the product as I had a loathing for them. I kept there midnight called to a minimum bu doing that.

Ed


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Edward Gould
2017-09-25 14:50:24 UTC
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Post by Bill Wilkie
Did you find out why they were updating things each time they ran? I wonder if their updating had to do with keeping usage statistics.
It was a little of both. They had some report program that read the dataset and produces a 1 page report (it wasn’t documented). That also from time to time ran the report program for their “own” usage, as far as I could tell they never talked about charging on usage.
They would ask one of the programmers to run the job for them, keeping the DC out of the loop. We used to have a weekly lunch where all sorts of information was passed around (as well as some wine) where we got this information.

Ed
Post by Bill Wilkie
Bill
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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-09-25 06:57:58 UTC
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Haha, conventions and standards. A famous expression here is: everybody is entitled to his own standards. Guess how many you will get.
We used SYS1. dsnames for the first, SYS2. for the second and SYS3. for datasets on our 3rd system volume, which containes system specific static data like IOCDS, Mastercatalog, Mainview history files etc.
We now changed the SYS3. to SYS&sysclone.

Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: 25 September, 2017 4:18
Subject: SYS3 datasets
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-09-25 09:13:11 UTC
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Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Haha, conventions and standards. A famous expression here is: everybody is entitled to his own standards.
Standards? Huh? What standards...? ;-D ;-D


Ok, seriously, we have this standards:

SysPlex HLQ (handful of them) - shared by all LPARs including a SysPlex wide PARMLIB, PROCLIB and Master Catalog.

LPAR specific HLQ - usually LNKLST datasets, PROCLIBs, CMDLIBs.

SYS1.<vendor/product> - shared by all LPARs

CEE.*, ASM.*, etc. - IBM - just as it is received from big blue. Also shared by all LPARs.

Each product has its own HLQ (and sometimes a version middle qualifier), except a few product load libraries which have a shared HLQ for LPA and LNKLST.

All clients, products, data, etc., have their own HLQ.

SYS2, SYS3, SYS4, etc.? they have died out eventually.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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van der Grijn, Bart , B
2017-09-25 11:20:17 UTC
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We've never used SYS3 (or SYS2,etc.). Products have their own two HLQ. PRDB2, PRTWS, PRISP, etc. for R/O datasets that reside on SYSRES. PSDB2, PSTWS, etc for runtime libraries for the same product.
Bart

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 10:18 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SYS3 datasets

We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen

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Edward Gould
2017-09-25 14:59:51 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
Tony,
We started out in that direction, but found that some vendors products *HAD* to be in the linklst. I refused to put a sys3 dataset in the linkliest PERIOD. One of the reasons was that there would be a plethora of datasets and there was no accounting of who put this where and why.
That got stopped after a year. I also didn’t want people that left any dirt they may have left either by accident or on purpose anything in the linklst (I won’t tell you about an incident we had that when the auditors found out they jumped on us up and down to get rid of them. I agreed but they wanted it done today and I said maybe next week as we had something major going in (it was 30+ years ago and I don’t remember details).

Ed


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Anthony Thompson
2017-09-26 04:27:39 UTC
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I've worked at a few different shops, and I've seen that SYS2, SYS3, SYS4 HLQ convention a several times.

It's a hangover from days of yore, around about the 10th century CE, when link-listed datasets had to be catalogued in the master catalogue. The thinking went: since SYS1 files are catalogued in the master catalogue for IBM datasets, let's create SYSx HLQ's for non-IBM datasets that need to be in the master catalogue too. Not necessary in these enlightened times of course, but those original conventions tend to hang around.

Ant.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2017 12:21 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
Tony,
We started out in that direction, but found that some vendors products *HAD* to be in the linklst. I refused to put a sys3 dataset in the linkliest PERIOD. One of the reasons was that there would be a plethora of datasets and there was no accounting of who put this where and why.
That got stopped after a year. I also didn’t want people that left any dirt they may have left either by accident or on purpose anything in the linklst (I won’t tell you about an incident we had that when the auditors found out they jumped on us up and down to get rid of them. I agreed but they wanted it done today and I said maybe next week as we had something major going in (it was 30+ years ago and I don’t remember details).

Ed


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Edward Gould
2017-09-26 15:14:43 UTC
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Post by Anthony Thompson
I've worked at a few different shops, and I've seen that SYS2, SYS3, SYS4 HLQ convention a several times.
It's a hangover from days of yore, around about the 10th century CE, when link-listed datasets had to be catalogued in the master catalogue. The thinking went: since SYS1 files are catalogued in the master catalogue for IBM datasets, let's create SYSx HLQ's for non-IBM datasets that need to be in the master catalogue too. Not necessary in these enlightened times of course, but those original conventions tend to hang around.
Ant.
Well as I see it by your explanation you make your dataset name choice and put it in the linklst and what happens in the next IPL when DFHSM isn’t up yet to recall the dataset that has been migrated?

There are side issues you have to think about like this.There are other issues as well.

Ed

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Rob Schramm
2017-09-26 16:04:40 UTC
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The only Rule is that you will definitely find that there are exceptions to
almost every rule. I ran into a guy that wanted TCPIP data sets to have a
HLQ of SYS3. I thought it was "less smart" <VBG>.. but it made him happy
and stopped his incessant tirades on the subject. As long as I know where
things are and people are mucking with stuff on the res pack.. I am pretty
chill. I prefer to have things in as few places rather than as many places
as possible... less to remember when trying to remember things in the
middle of the night.

As long as the rules/conventions are somewhat consistent within your shop..
that is certainly a good place to start.

Just make sure that you don't shoot yourself in the foot on your way to
"being like everyone else". Migrating to new conventions can have all
sorts of unintended consequences.

Rob Schramm
Post by Anthony Thompson
On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:28 PM, Anthony Thompson <
I've worked at a few different shops, and I've seen that SYS2, SYS3,
SYS4 HLQ convention a several times.
It's a hangover from days of yore, around about the 10th century CE,
when link-listed datasets had to be catalogued in the master catalogue. The
thinking went: since SYS1 files are catalogued in the master catalogue for
IBM datasets, let's create SYSx HLQ's for non-IBM datasets that need to be
in the master catalogue too. Not necessary in these enlightened times of
course, but those original conventions tend to hang around.
Ant.
Well as I see it by your explanation you make your dataset name choice and
put it in the linklst and what happens in the next IPL when DFHSM isn’t up
yet to recall the dataset that has been migrated?
There are side issues you have to think about like this.There are other issues as well.
Ed
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Grinsell, Don
2017-09-26 16:12:23 UTC
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We use SYS1, SYST and SYS9 here. The rationale is lost to history.

--

Donald Grinsell, Systems Programmer
Enterprise Technology Services Bureau
SITSD/Montana Department of Administration
406.444.2983 (D)


"Never give in, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."
~ Winston Churchill


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Tom Marchant
2017-09-25 13:16:29 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
Nonsense. If he wants to use SYS3 for third party software, that's his
business. But to justify it with "Almost all shops" is silly.

I worked at one shop that used SYS3 and SYS3X for third party products.
SYS3 for data sets that were in the LNKLST or LPALST and were cataloged
in the master catalog, and SYS3X for everything else.

Yes, I know that LNKLST and LPALST data sets don't have to be cataloged
in the master catalog, but it does make managing those data sets a little bit
easier if the volume doesn't have to be specified on the LNKLST or LPALST.
--
Tom Marchant

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John McKown
2017-09-25 13:21:33 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did
not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
​I agree with you. That is *HIS* rule. Now, having said that, we do happen
to use SYS3 as the HLQ for all 3rd party software run-time libraries. I.e.
they are the ones which we customize. The "distribution" libraries start
with SYS5. And we even have SYS4 libraries which are "system" libraries
which the _programmers_ can update. So they're not really system
libraries.​ But at other shops, I have used other HLQs for OEM products.
E.g. COMPWARE. and CA.
Post by Tony Thigpen
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen
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Allan Staller
2017-09-25 13:23:04 UTC
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There is an old *convention* that uses that.
I would question "almost all".

You may or may not choose to follow that convention.
I have not used that convention in over 10 years.




-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Tony Thigpen
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 9:18 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SYS3 datasets

We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?

--
Tony Thigpen

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Carmen Vitullo
2017-09-25 17:19:00 UTC
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Unfortunately and fortunately I've had the opportunity to work in many different shops, the phrase 'almost all shops use SYS3' is just B.S.


It all comes down to who started or documented the standards for that company or site, I've worked for companies that added a site ID to a HLQ, the standards were company wide, some sites had rules that OEM or vendor products were SYSP1.vender.product.libtype, and when multiple systems joined a sysplex SYS8 was used for sysplex datasets, so the rule is more a standard for the site or company. some very strange and don't make much sense, like the outsourcing company I worked for tried to force OEM* to the HLQ for program products, when OTHER standards were already in place in a 16 system sysplex with multiple customers, try forcing a long standing customer to accept that change :(
same standards are being used for the Unix directory structure, everyone has an opinion on how it should be designed and they're no right or wrong way as long as everyone adheres to the standards.




my 2 cents




Carmen


----- Original Message -----

From: "Tony Thigpen" <***@VSE2PDF.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 9:18:05 PM
Subject: SYS3 datasets

We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony Thigpen

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Jesse 1 Robinson
2017-09-25 19:13:58 UTC
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As others have said, there is no universal rule, just conventions adopted in each shop--or in each mind! I personally think that 'SYS3' for 3rd party products is a pretty cute mnemonic, but it's certainly not pervasive. One requirement that we recently got reminded of is that a link list data sets must be cataloged in the master catalog for 'normal' processing. You can use a user cataloged data set with restrictions:

"If you plan to use a user catalog, you should be aware that the system will not find the data set unless you specify both the name of the data set and the volume serial number (VOLSER) of the DASD volume on which the data set resides. (This restriction also applies if you are defining the LNKLST concatenation in LNKLSTxx.)"

Specifically, we tried to link-list a user catalog library just for an IEFSSNxx init routine. Module was not found. So if you plan to use anything other than 'SYS1' for such purposes, be sure that you put the whole set into MCAT.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 10:20 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: SYS3 datasets

Unfortunately and fortunately I've had the opportunity to work in many different shops, the phrase 'almost all shops use SYS3' is just B.S.


It all comes down to who started or documented the standards for that company or site, I've worked for companies that added a site ID to a HLQ, the standards were company wide, some sites had rules that OEM or vendor products were SYSP1.vender.product.libtype, and when multiple systems joined a sysplex SYS8 was used for sysplex datasets, so the rule is more a standard for the site or company. some very strange and don't make much sense, like the outsourcing company I worked for tried to force OEM* to the HLQ for program products, when OTHER standards were already in place in a 16 system sysplex with multiple customers, try forcing a long standing customer to accept that change :( same standards are being used for the Unix directory structure, everyone has an opinion on how it should be designed and they're no right or wrong way as long as everyone adheres to the standards.




my 2 cents




Carmen


----- Original Message -----

From: "Tony Thigpen" <***@VSE2PDF.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 9:18:05 PM
Subject: SYS3 datasets

We have a staff z/OS systems programmer who claims that:
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."

So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)

I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.

Opinions?

How many other sites follow such a rule?
--
Tony


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van der Grijn, Bart , B
2017-09-25 19:43:35 UTC
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"So if you plan to use anything other than 'SYS1' for such purposes, be sure that you put the whole set into MCAT."

Or use volsers in your PROGxx members if that's a practical alternative.

In our newer environments (all DB2) we use one single SYSRES and all link-listed libraries are on that SYSRES. Every LNKLST and APF member in PROGxx has VOLUME(&SYSRS1) coded. No catalog involved.

In our older environments it's pretty much the same thing, except that we have a couple of local libraries that are not on SYSRES. We hard code the VOLSER as they never move.

Bart

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jesse 1 Robinson
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 3:15 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets

As others have said, there is no universal rule, just conventions adopted in each shop--or in each mind! I personally think that 'SYS3' for 3rd party products is a pretty cute mnemonic, but it's certainly not pervasive. One requirement that we recently got reminded of is that a link list data sets must be cataloged in the master catalog for 'normal' processing. You can use a user cataloged data set with restrictions:

"If you plan to use a user catalog, you should be aware that the system will not find the data set unless you specify both the name of the data set and the volume serial number (VOLSER) of the DASD volume on which the data set resides. (This restriction also applies if you are defining the LNKLST concatenation in LNKLSTxx.)"

Specifically, we tried to link-list a user catalog library just for an IEFSSNxx init routine. Module was not found. So if you plan to use anything other than 'SYS1' for such purposes, be sure that you put the whole set into MCAT.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


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Gibney, Dave
2017-09-25 19:59:18 UTC
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To my knowledge, we've never had any SYS3 datasets. Kinda makes me cringe :)
There's still a couple SYS2 from very old habits, but in general, we stick with what IBM provides for IBM and usually what the ISV suggests for other.

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Bruce Hewson
2017-09-27 05:52:13 UTC
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In my almost 40 years of MVS support, the only time I came across SYS3 was in a very large, multi-site, company.

For security segregation each subsystem group was assigned a unique SYS% hlq.. SYS2,SYS3,SYS4,etc

Not an issue for MVS support as all the product datasets were placed on cloned sysres sets.

All the SYS% datasets get cataloged in the system Master catalog.

No sysres dataset is ever migrated by HSM.

Once you get used to the site's dataset naming convention, anything can work.

Regards
Bruce

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Edward Gould
2017-09-27 12:28:07 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hewson
In my almost 40 years of MVS support, the only time I came across SYS3 was in a very large, multi-site, company.
For security segregation each subsystem group was assigned a unique SYS% hlq.. SYS2,SYS3,SYS4,etc
Not an issue for MVS support as all the product datasets were placed on cloned sysres sets.
All the SYS% datasets get cataloged in the system Master catalog.
No sysres dataset is ever migrated by HSM.
Once you get used to the site's dataset naming convention, anything can work.
Bruce,,
That looks like an idea situation. Most of us are in a less than idea situation.
When say sys3 datasets are managed by another group, (we) could not dictate anything to them. They had their own methodology.
One day during IPL, indeed one of their datasets somehow got migrated, if memory serves me it was a STK load lib.
They were in a catch 22 situation. I let them fumble around for 30 minutes and since we were getting close to market open time. I fixed the issue.
I left a note on their supervisors door and told him they had to conform to our standard or this would happen again.
That afternoon we were invited to their group meeting and we gave them the rules. Everyone of them were argued about,
I said look either you conform or we will take away this type of software so we won’t have anymore outages. That got a little a few more arguments.
I said look, next time myself or any of the group might not be around and the markets won’t open and who will get blamed for that?
We ended up taking control back for any system critical product.
Ed

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Art Gutowski
2017-09-27 22:03:07 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Vendors ought to suggest installation paths for their software products.
Agreed.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
SYS3.vendor.** seems like a good idea. Or incorporating the vendors'
registered element prefix.
For some, perhaps, but almost assuredly not for all.
Bullocks. Shops need to do what makes sense for them. There are certain aspects of software installation where vendor requirements are clear and ought to be followed without exception, or bad things can happen. Dataset names ought not to be a problem area. As for registered prefix, these ought to be incorporated into LLQ/SMPE DDDEF names. It may make sense as a mid- or high-level qualifier to some, but it ought not to be a requirement.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
o It allows trying samples in the vendor documents with less tailoring
of DD statements.
ServerPac and other sufficiently sophisticated installation tools can handle the bulk of this tailoring. JCL and System symbols can make what's left much easier. A system programmer ought to know how to make a few JCL or source code changes to get a sample working...and a newbie can be taught, no matter what the PHBs have read in the trade rags or social media.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
o It makes programmer skill sets more portable. (But management
might consider that a bad idea.)
I fail to see how learning a shop's standards impacts skill set portability. SMP/E and other system programmer skills are not null and void because one shop uses SYS3 and another uses a separate HLQ for each vendor. It just takes time to assimilate into the environment. I learned how to ride a bicycle in the US. I don't have to re-learn how to ride if I move to the UK, I just have to learn to ride on the other side of the road and look first in the opposite direction before crossing a road.

There are potentially as many standards as there are shops to develop them. Software installation tools, the people that develop them, and the people that use them, ought to be flexible enough to cope.

Art Gutowski
General Motors, LLC

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Ed Jaffe
2017-09-29 02:06:03 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
Don't think I've *ever* seen the SYS3 HLQ used by our customers for our
software. That doesn't mean nobody does it, just that I can't remember
having seen it done. (They normally use 'SYS2' or some non-SYS HLQ
altogether such as 'EJES' or 'ZHISR').

We use the SYSn (1-4) HLQs thusly:

* SYS1 - IBM data sets (e.g., SYS1.PARMLIB)
o Master catalog. Non-SMS
* SYS2 - PSI-maintained analogs to IBM's (e.g., SYS2.PARMLIB), usually
concatenated in front of IBM's
o Master catalog. Non-SMS
* SYS3 - System data sets (dynamic SVC dumps, etc)
o User catalog. SMS-managed
* SYS4 - System data sets (e.g., IPLPARM)
o User catalog. Non-SMS
--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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R.S.
2017-10-02 14:33:07 UTC
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Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
I've seen many shops in Poland and abroad and *never* seen such rule.
I see no rationale behind, maybe except "mama said so".

My €0.02
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

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DiBianca, Robert
2017-10-03 20:04:41 UTC
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I see 3 SYS3.** datasets at my shop, and the past 5 mainframe shops that I've seen have never used SYS3 (that goes back to the 1980's).

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:34 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
I've seen many shops in Poland and abroad and *never* seen such rule.
I see no rationale behind, maybe except "mama said so".

My €0.02


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




======================================================================


--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.


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August Carideo/RYE/US
2017-10-03 20:07:30 UTC
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We use them here

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of DiBianca, Robert
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 4:06 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets

I see 3 SYS3.** datasets at my shop, and the past 5 mainframe shops that I've seen have never used SYS3 (that goes back to the 1980's).

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:34 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
I've seen many shops in Poland and abroad and *never* seen such rule.
I see no rationale behind, maybe except "mama said so".

My €0.02


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




======================================================================


--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2016 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.955.696 złotych.


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David Purdy
2017-10-03 21:36:51 UTC
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From our standard set up over 20 years ago, hlq SYS1 is for IBM ServerPac datasets, SYS2 is for LNKLST libraries, SYS3 is for other products.
Second level qualifier for SYS3 and SYS3 reflect the product. Each res volume has its own set of IBM etc, root, Java, and so on

It works.

Only SYS1 and SYS2 are in the master catalog (okay, CPAC and other HLQs for z/OS installation).

David



On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 August Carideo/RYE/US <***@AVON.COM> wrote:
We use them here

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of DiBianca, Robert
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 4:06 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets

I see 3 SYS3.** datasets at my shop, and the past 5 mainframe shops that I've seen have never used SYS3 (that goes back to the 1980's).

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:34 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SYS3 datasets
Post by Tony Thigpen
"Almost all shops use the SYS3. HLQ to indicate third party software."
So new software installs *have* to follow that "rule". (Past installs
did not follow such a rule.)
I am thinking that this "rule" is really just *his* rule.
Opinions?
How many other sites follow such a rule?
I've seen many shops in Poland and abroad and *never* seen such rule.
I see no rationale behind, maybe except "mama said so".

My €0.02


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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