Discussion:
Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
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John Eells
2018-03-26 17:03:11 UTC
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Perhaps some of you recall this from last October. If you missed it in
the announcement:

"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service
on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. This fulfills the statement of
direction in Software Announcement A17-0134, dated February 21, 2017.
IBM recommends downloading products and service over the internet.
However, if you have a requirement for physical media, products and
service remain available on DVD."


John Eells wrote:
<snip>
The problem everyone has with physical media is being able to ship
something compatible with what people have today, and will continue
to have tomorrow. Our tape drives cartridge formats are not, as far
as I know, readable by other manufacturer's tape drives these days.
(3480 was the last interoperable format.)
On the workstation front, optical drives are falling out of favor on
new machines. I personally want to stay away from USB memory sticks,
and a number of very security-conscious clients do not allow their
use at all. They disable USB ports entirely, which precludes all
things that are USB-attached and not just memory sticks. We're
starting to run shy of things we can send everyone that will remain
usable for the foreseeable future.
It's this, really, that might drive us toward Internet-only delivery
at some future point.
John Eells
z/OS Platform Installation Strategy
John,
How are you going to handle the orders for Tapes? Our installation
does not have *ANY* internet connection from the M/F. AFAIK that will
never change. The place is hyper about security. I think its
overblown, but the current upper management says NFW. When they say no
they mean no. Myself I am happy with tape, I don’t have to worry about
the SMPE creating datasets all over the place and having 5 volumes(or
more) for simple maintenance.
In addition to what I wrote above, we, like everyone else, are driven by
client behaviors and available technologies. So let's talk about
numbers for a minute.
As of this March, 86% of our orders are being downloaded, and every time
we get new numbers that percentage goes up. Of the remainder, the last
year I pulled numbers to break down DVD vs. tape, about 2/3 of orders
delivered on physical media were on DVD. That was a couple of years
ago. If I extrapolate the trend we saw then, that 1/3 of the remainder
is probably more like 1/6 today.
In other words, tape orders are dwindling, and not slowly.
At some point, we will almost certainly drop tape support for software
delivery. It seems very likely to me that we simply will not be able to
justify replacing the tape drives in the distribution centers once our
current tape drives reach end of life.
I hope nobody finds this surprising. We have, for example, discussed
this before in IBM-MAIN.
In a future without tape, if you do not have optical drives and cannot
connect to the Internet, you will need to take a laptop outside the
firewall, download your order, bring it back in, and upload it to your
z/OS system. This is already supported and documented, and has been for
well over a decade now.
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-26 18:43:18 UTC
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"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network to
tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM OCC?

-- gil

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David Boyes
2018-03-26 18:53:42 UTC
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"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
Easy, folks. Find someone with an IBM OMA/2 or a FlexCUB from Fundamental Software. Cheap, and lets you read DVDs as tape from the mainframe transparently -- supports reading and writing AWSTAPE format. I think they've announced a FICON version, but if not, an ESCON to FICON converter, and you're done.


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John Eells
2018-03-26 19:22:26 UTC
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"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from
another.)

First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current
plans to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to
the internet from z/OS is not required.

In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall,
download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal
network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS
to the internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably
faster than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers
handy, but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you
need to download for a Netflix movie in SD. If you are ordering the
gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you need for a few
Netflix HD movies.

Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you
can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products,
and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it
works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit)
interesting in knowing about the outcome.

* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Edward Gould
2018-03-26 20:38:52 UTC
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"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy, but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD. If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
John:
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data (include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it be their way or noway.
Ed

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Gibney, Dave
2018-03-26 20:46:39 UTC
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And just exactly how do they expect to get Windows? Microsoft is basically subscriptions services noadaays.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and
service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans
to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the internet
from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download
stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network, and upload
it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the internet is not
required for this, either, and it's probably faster than waiting for a DVD to
arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy, but the data volume for most
orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD.
If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you
need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can
perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we
have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If
someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing
about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it
be their way or noway.
Ed
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Charles Mills
2018-03-26 21:12:41 UTC
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I can't get Windows on 3480 cartridge?!?

That does it! We're converting to TRSDOS instead.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gibney, Dave
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:48 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued

And just exactly how do they expect to get Windows? Microsoft is basically subscriptions services noadaays.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and
service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans
to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the
internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download
stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network,
and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the
internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster
than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy,
but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD.
If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about
what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can
perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and
we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it
works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit)
interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and
insists it be their way or noway.
Ed
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Steve Beaver
2018-03-26 21:15:27 UTC
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Roflol

Sent from my iPhone

Sorry for the autocorrect issues
Post by Charles Mills
I can't get Windows on 3480 cartridge?!?
That does it! We're converting to TRSDOS instead.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
And just exactly how do they expect to get Windows? Microsoft is basically subscriptions services noadaays.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and
service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans
to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the
internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download
stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network,
and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the
internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster
than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy,
but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD.
If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about
what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can
perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and
we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it
works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit)
interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and
insists it be their way or noway.
Ed
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John McKown
2018-03-26 20:51:38 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
Ed
​So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"? ​
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Edward Gould
2018-03-26 21:59:23 UTC
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Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
Ed
​So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data”?
John, I was told to stay out of the process PERIOD. Like I said I will be in genuine retirement and no longer care about IBM.
just some good memories of now ex IBM people I have met over the years.

Ed
Post by John McKown

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J R
2018-03-26 21:25:51 UTC
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Assuming the current tape delivery is "outside data", how do you get it into the building?

If Ted McNeil were still active in this forum, he'd say that auditors don't make policy, they just enforce it.

This whole attitude seems a little weird: Replacing z/OS with Windows because IBM is changing from tape to a more modern medium. It sounds like a baby throwing his toys out of the pram!
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data (include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it be their way or noway.
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Steve Thompson
2018-03-26 21:54:07 UTC
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How badly do they want a tape install?

Are they willing to allow a third party to get them what they need?

I think I know how make this happen.

Regards,
Steve Thompson
Post by Edward Gould
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy, but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD. If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data (include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it be their way or noway.
Ed
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Clark Morris
2018-03-27 00:59:51 UTC
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[Default] On 26 Mar 2018 13:38:52 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy, but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD. If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data (include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it be their way or noway.
My response is that both are idiots and I would like to know the name
of the company so I can short sell it. They are going to convert to
Windows which might supply a DVD but not keep it up to date. All
fixes are delivered via Internet. What makes these people think that
tape can't be subverted? IBM should make a way for z/OS to read the
DVDs but frankly unless the mainframe at this company only has hard
wired connections to it and NO outside connection, it needs Internet
delivery of fixes for time dependency reasons.

Given this mentality, I would be worried about security on that
mainframe.

Clark Morris
Ed
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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 20:04:26 UTC
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Post by Clark Morris
My response is that both are idiots and I would like to know the name
of the company so I can short sell it. They are going to convert to
Windows which might supply a DVD but not keep it up to date. All
fixes are delivered via Internet. What makes these people think that
tape can't be subverted? IBM should make a way for z/OS to read the
DVDs but frankly unless the mainframe at this company only has hard
wired connections to it and NO outside connection, it needs Internet
delivery of fixes for time dependency reasons.
Given this mentality, I would be worried about security on that
mainframe.
Clark Morris
Ed
I signed a NDA when I was brought on board and cannot disclose to anyone. One of my colleagues got into some civil matter and when put on the stand and was asked his place of work, he declined to state the name. The company lawyer was brought in and the court and the other attorney stipulated that he was employed but no name of the company was mentioned other than employed or place of employment.

Like I said before the windows issues is not/will not be my responsibility, I have repeatedly been told to keep my nose out of that whole mess. It is now the company’s problem. My boss is well aware of the issues and he has chosen to stay out as he does not want to end up on the street with no job and no job history. I am pretty sure I know what kind of restrictions that are going to be placed on the outsourcing company and they will not like it, but they may or may not know these restrictions ahead of time and again that is their problem, not mine.

I don’t like burrowing my head in the sand either. The company is there to make those decisions, not me.

Ed


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R.S.
2018-03-27 11:26:26 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead?
(I'm not sure why I can't see Ed's post, so I copied the above from another.)
First, we are still delivering these things on DVD and have no current plans to stop doing that. So, if that was your concern, a connection to the internet from z/OS is not required.
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall, download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed. A connection from z/OS to the internet is not required for this, either, and it's probably faster than waiting for a DVD to arrive. I don't have actual numbers handy, but the data volume for most orders is probably less than you need to download for a Netflix movie in SD. If you are ordering the gorilla in the room (z/OS itself), it's about what you need for a few Netflix HD movies.
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing about the outcome.
* "Stuff" = Products, PTFs, HOLDDATA, etc.
--
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data (include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists it be their way or noway.
Tape from IBM is as outside as DVD from IBM. Both contain data (DVD
cannot be altered ).
Of course you CEO and auditor can demand only square media or only tape
media, or only media delivered by a person in pink jacket, but it has
nothing to do with common sense.
BTW: How do you get PTF's?
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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David Boyes
2018-03-27 03:01:37 UTC
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Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing
The “faketape” support for the ZPDT and friends is basically the same technology as the OMA/2, but done completely in software, so if you want to give it a whirl, find someone with a ZPDT. AWSTAPE files (a volume is a directory with files containing the same data as on physical carts and some metadata) were invented for the OMA/2, which looks like a really long 3422 volume to the host. The flexCUB box is able to emulate all sorts of devices, disk/tape/3270/etc. They’re really handy if you need to handle some obscure volume format on an older CPU - we recently reanimated a 4341 using one for all the I/O devices on that system.

We bought a physical OMA/2 long long ago and kept running with a bus/tag to FICON converter. BusTech also made a similar box, but I don’t remember now whether there was ever an ESCON version. The OMA/2 supports CD and DVD media, albeit with a few manual hoops to select and mount the right “volume” on the emulated device. It’s one of the major reasons I wish ZPDT supported an emulated 3494 library controller device so I could finally retire that box.

Today, I’d probably just try to find a desktop SCSI 3590, attach it to a stand-alone PC, and use the tape image utilities provided with Hercules to create a 3590 from AWSTAPE files on the DVD. Then, apply service as normal (or at least till IBM decides to remove the tape support code from SMP/E).

It’d be really slick if IBM reanimated the OMA/2 device with a native FICON adapter, even if it was just for this purpose. The ability to emulate a range of mainframe devices on commodity hardware has been really, really useful over the years.

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John Eells
2018-03-27 13:47:23 UTC
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Post by David Boyes
Then, if you are willing to buy hardware as David Boyes outlined, you can perhaps do it that way. I have no knowledge about these products, and we have not tested that approach, so I do not know whether or not it works. If someone has tried it, I'd be (academically, I'll admit) interesting in knowing
The “faketape” support for the ZPDT and friends is basically the same technology as the OMA/2, but done completely in software, so if you want to give it a whirl, find someone with a ZPDT. AWSTAPE files (a volume is a directory with files containing the same data as on physical carts and some metadata) were invented for the OMA/2, which looks like a really long 3422 volume to the host. The flexCUB box is able to emulate all sorts of devices, disk/tape/3270/etc. They’re really handy if you need to handle some obscure volume format on an older CPU - we recently reanimated a 4341 using one for all the I/O devices on that system.
We bought a physical OMA/2 long long ago and kept running with a bus/tag to FICON converter. BusTech also made a similar box, but I don’t remember now whether there was ever an ESCON version. The OMA/2 supports CD and DVD media, albeit with a few manual hoops to select and mount the right “volume” on the emulated device. It’s one of the major reasons I wish ZPDT supported an emulated 3494 library controller device so I could finally retire that box.
Today, I’d probably just try to find a desktop SCSI 3590, attach it to a stand-alone PC, and use the tape image utilities provided with Hercules to create a 3590 from AWSTAPE files on the DVD. Then, apply service as normal (or at least till IBM decides to remove the tape support code from SMP/E).
It’d be really slick if IBM reanimated the OMA/2 device with a native FICON adapter, even if it was just for this purpose. The ability to emulate a range of mainframe devices on commodity hardware has been really, really useful over the years.
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier
post.

As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s), I do know about AWSTAPE support (which was originally
written for the P390s). However, we do not, and have no plans to,
deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.

Were there hardware available to read the files we do supply on DVD so
they could be written to the z/OS UNIX file system, I would find that
interesting.
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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David Boyes
2018-03-27 15:13:41 UTC
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Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
However, we do not, and have no plans to, deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
That would seem to meet everyone's needs here, and it'd be trivial to support both electronic or physical media delivery options for the people that care one way or another. You (or some contractor, given IBM's current attitude about services and the people who deliver them) could easily support people that want physical media (copy the files to your preferred delivery media - the Hercules folks have done a fine job of providing an example of tools to do that), no one has to do anything different if they don't want to (don't break existing customer processes), and you create jobs for some folks so the people at the top of the food chain can point at all the things IBM is doing to improve the economy, even if those people aren't IBMers. Everybody wins, and no wheels need to get invented. (*insert sarcasm as needed*)
Were there hardware available to read the files we do supply on DVD so
they could be written to the z/OS UNIX file system, I would find that
interesting.
Well, you're in a better positon to bug the Powers That Be that do hardware design and delivery... 8-)

Seriously, I'd buy one. License Fundamental's code for the FlexCUB and give it a FICON adapter, and I'd buy a lot more than one. Might kill your disk division (or at least change what it does), but the "mainframe different because we can be" meme would finally be put to rest. It's not like the actual disk hardware has been anything unique for quite a while now, and you wouldn't have to accept the performance issues with FICON vs raw FCP. Would also avoid the mods needed to teach z/OS how to cope with FBA disks.




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Robert Wessel
2018-03-27 17:02:19 UTC
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Post by David Boyes
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
At least when the P/370 got turned into the 9371 it did. Perhaps it
did prior to that as well, but I never worked with it then.
John Eells
2018-03-27 17:21:34 UTC
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Post by David Boyes
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
However, we do not, and have no plans to, deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
I'd quite forgotten about P370, in part because I don't know that it was
ever available external to IBM. It might well have been what the AWS*
things were ogiginally written for, and if so, I stand (well, sit, at
the moment) corrected.

But in any event, we have no plans to support AWSTAPE format for
software delivery in general. It's not at all clear to me that it would
solve anything that is not already solved by retrieving the files from a
workstation file system (hard drive or DVD), either, and until someone
shows me how it would be, I don't know why I'd support the effort to do
it. (And, as it happens, it's not actually trivial to implement it in
the software delivery process.)
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Charles Mills
2018-03-27 18:16:14 UTC
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P370, in part because I don't know that it was ever available external to IBM
I had a P370. "Personal/370" apparently was the correct name. Or perhaps it was the 7437, which was pre-P370.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-based_IBM-compatible_mainframes

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Eells
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 10:23 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
However, we do not, and have no plans to, deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
I'd quite forgotten about P370, in part because I don't know that it was ever available external to IBM. It might well have been what the AWS* things were ogiginally written for, and if so, I stand (well, sit, at the moment) corrected.

But in any event, we have no plans to support AWSTAPE format for software delivery in general. It's not at all clear to me that it would solve anything that is not already solved by retrieving the files from a workstation file system (hard drive or DVD), either, and until someone shows me how it would be, I don't know why I'd support the effort to do it. (And, as it happens, it's not actually trivial to implement it in the software delivery process.)

--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Edward Finnell
2018-03-27 18:28:41 UTC
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'I am neither man nor beast, I am Quasimodo.'


In a message dated 3/27/2018 1:17:47 PM Central Standard Time, ***@MCN.ORG writes:

 
x�UMo7��W|

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Charles Mills
2018-03-27 18:45:11 UTC
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I said no such thing!

<g>

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Finnell
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 11:30 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued

'I am neither man nor beast, I am Quasimodo.'


In a message dated 3/27/2018 1:17:47 PM Central Standard Time, ***@MCN.ORG writes:


x UMo7 W|

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Chris Hoelscher
2018-03-27 19:38:34 UTC
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'I am neither man nor beast, I am Quasimodo.'

Ask me a week from Sunday

Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services
Humana Inc.
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Humana.com
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Tony Harminc
2018-03-27 22:16:42 UTC
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Post by John Eells
I'd quite forgotten about P370, in part because I don't know that it was
ever available external to IBM. It might well have been what the AWS*
things were ogiginally written for, and if so, I stand (well, sit, at the
moment) corrected.
The P370 was initially available outside IBM as an OEM Microchannel
card in early 1992.

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=P370&ft=MEMO

Tony H.

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Edward Gould
2018-03-26 20:34:27 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network to
tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM OCC?
-- gil
Gil:

Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will be putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and go over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement and not being able to play in the sandbox anymore(:
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.

Ed

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Doug Fuerst
2018-03-26 20:42:02 UTC
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This is much ado about nothing. Most places I work at have been
downloading the z/OS releases for years.
Good luck converting to Windoze. Guess your manager like freezes and
hacks.

Doug Fuerst


------ Original Message ------
From: "Edward Gould" <***@comcast.net>
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 26-Mar-18 4:35:46 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Edward Gould
On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and
service on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network to
tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM OCC?
-- gil
Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will be
putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and
go over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.
Ed
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Charles Mills
2018-03-26 20:46:10 UTC
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Goofiness.

Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on 9-track
tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?

If this is how your management makes business decisions I know what should
be replaced, and it's not z/OS.

https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/beauty-is-skin-deep-but-stupid
-goes-right-to-the-bone-b1c28

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:36 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service
on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network
to tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM
OCC?
-- gil
Gil:

Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be
discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will be
putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and go
over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement and
not being able to play in the sandbox anymore(:
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.

Ed

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Mike Schwab
2018-03-26 21:53:39 UTC
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Last time I used a tape was for LAN backups in the early 1990s. No
software distribution though.
Post by Charles Mills
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on 9-track
tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
If this is how your management makes business decisions I know what should
be replaced, and it's not z/OS.
https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/beauty-is-skin-deep-but-stupid
-goes-right-to-the-bone-b1c28
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service
on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this
install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or
upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network
to tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM
OCC?
-- gil
Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will be
putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and go
over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement and
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.
Ed
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Edward Gould
2018-03-26 21:56:28 UTC
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Post by Charles Mills
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on 9-track
tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
You are missing the point. It is called the INTERNET. They do not want *anything* that a. Came through the internet. b. Does not come via FEDEX(or UPS) from IBM with signatures/id card
c. And 1 or two more things that I am not sure of. All tape must be delivered to the auditor and the department takes care of authenticating everything (not my responsibility nor authority to question) I have heard vague rumors of the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM (I cannot confirm this). I also heard that the company looked into having a armed carrier truck pick the tape up at IBM but again cannot confirm this. This company is beyond security conscious, I cannot explain it as the origins predate me by 20 or so years. I have tried to bridge this a couple of times and was told to shut up and don’t say anything again.
Post by Charles Mills
If this is how your management makes business decisions I know what should
be replaced, and it's not z/OS.
Management in a lot of areas is great and in others the stone age. The tape thing is stone age. I am sure we have a lot of overhead of people checking things like this out.
Yes and it might be arcane but the company is thriving and management (at least mine) will not rock the boat. I am here as sort of advisor and I am not getting paid. If they want to be this way that is their decision not mine. I can’t even get a finger in to see what the decision process is in these types of matters. I tried one time to get a finger in and it was almost chopped off. This is fine with me, IBM as I suspected does not listen to its customers and really does not care. I have seen IBM go from a world class company to operating at the whims of people who have lost touch with its customers. I think the 43xx box was the death of IBM, thats my opinion. No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.

Ed
Post by Charles Mills
https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/beauty-is-skin-deep-but-stupid
-goes-right-to-the-bone-b1c28
Charles
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service
on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this
install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or
upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network
to tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM
OCC?
-- gil
Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will be
putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and go
over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement and
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.
Ed
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Charles Mills
2018-03-26 22:26:43 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.
I certainly do, and all the time. As recently as week before last.
Post by Edward Gould
the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM
I would guess that a certificate-signed distribution -- yes, even over the dread Al Gore Googlenet -- is more secure than a phone call to IBM. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Federal Express. 2048 bit RSA keys, however, do not lie.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 2:58 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Edward Gould
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on
9-track tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
You are missing the point. It is called the INTERNET. They do not want *anything* that a. Came through the internet. b. Does not come via FEDEX(or UPS) from IBM with signatures/id card
c. And 1 or two more things that I am not sure of. All tape must be delivered to the auditor and the department takes care of authenticating everything (not my responsibility nor authority to question) I have heard vague rumors of the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM (I cannot confirm this). I also heard that the company looked into having a armed carrier truck pick the tape up at IBM but again cannot confirm this. This company is beyond security conscious, I cannot explain it as the origins predate me by 20 or so years. I have tried to bridge this a couple of times and was told to shut up and don’t say anything again.
Post by Edward Gould
If this is how your management makes business decisions I know what
should be replaced, and it's not z/OS.
Management in a lot of areas is great and in others the stone age. The tape thing is stone age. I am sure we have a lot of overhead of people checking things like this out.
Yes and it might be arcane but the company is thriving and management (at least mine) will not rock the boat. I am here as sort of advisor and I am not getting paid. If they want to be this way that is their decision not mine. I can’t even get a finger in to see what the decision process is in these types of matters. I tried one time to get a finger in and it was almost chopped off. This is fine with me, IBM as I suspected does not listen to its customers and really does not care. I have seen IBM go from a world class company to operating at the whims of people who have lost touch with its customers. I think the 43xx box was the death of IBM, thats my opinion. No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.

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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 19:47:17 UTC
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Post by Charles Mills
Post by Edward Gould
No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.
I certainly do, and all the time. As recently as week before last.
Post by Edward Gould
the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM
I would guess that a certificate-signed distribution -- yes, even over the dread Al Gore Googlenet -- is more secure than a phone call to IBM. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Federal Express. 2048 bit RSA keys, however, do not lie.
Charles
Charles:
That is beyond my (free) pay grade. The auditors are tight lipped and do not give us a clue. It would not be too surprising that they have a password system in effect but I do not know and any guessing is worthless .

Ed


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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 20:12:07 UTC
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Post by Charles Mills
Post by Edward Gould
No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.
I certainly do, and all the time. As recently as week before last.
Was this in a business environment or friend. In my statement it was a business, I had a (general type question, like, how does one make a backup copy of..) There was no secret type of information I was asking. The IBMer said to me, I need a signed contract before I can answer that question. When I pressed he said the mininum charge was 10K (US). I tried the sales end and was shut down just as fast. I thought 20 years ago I would’ve gotten an answer no charge and maybe even gotten a free drink as there was a competitor and that is the difference.
Post by Charles Mills
Post by Edward Gould
the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM
I would guess that a certificate-signed distribution -- yes, even over the dread Al Gore Googlenet -- is more secure than a phone call to IBM. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of Federal Express. 2048 bit RSA keys, however, do not lie.
I answered that a few emails back.
Post by Charles Mills
Charles
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Richards, Robert B.
2018-03-27 11:16:19 UTC
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Is your upper management watching the movies "The Net" or "War Games" on a loop? Paranoid much?

Do the words "SECURE TRANSMISSION" mean anything to them?
Consider that the world's wealth is running on IBM's z/OS operating systems. Virtually all of them get their OS upgrades electronically. But your company is "special"? <insert sarcastic smile>
How many other posters on this forum have ever said "me too" to the paranoia expressed in your posts?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 5:58 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Charles Mills
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on
9-track tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
You are missing the point. It is called the INTERNET. They do not want *anything* that a. Came through the internet. b. Does not come via FEDEX(or UPS) from IBM with signatures/id card
c. And 1 or two more things that I am not sure of. All tape must be delivered to the auditor and the department takes care of authenticating everything (not my responsibility nor authority to question) I have heard vague rumors of the AUDITOR calling someone at IBM to make sure that the package came from IBM (I cannot confirm this). I also heard that the company looked into having a armed carrier truck pick the tape up at IBM but again cannot confirm this. This company is beyond security conscious, I cannot explain it as the origins predate me by 20 or so years. I have tried to bridge this a couple of times and was told to shut up and don’t say anything again.
Post by Charles Mills
If this is how your management makes business decisions I know what
should be replaced, and it's not z/OS.
Management in a lot of areas is great and in others the stone age. The tape thing is stone age. I am sure we have a lot of overhead of people checking things like this out.
Yes and it might be arcane but the company is thriving and management (at least mine) will not rock the boat. I am here as sort of advisor and I am not getting paid. If they want to be this way that is their decision not mine. I can’t even get a finger in to see what the decision process is in these types of matters. I tried one time to get a finger in and it was almost chopped off. This is fine with me, IBM as I suspected does not listen to its customers and really does not care. I have seen IBM go from a world class company to operating at the whims of people who have lost touch with its customers. I think the 43xx box was the death of IBM, thats my opinion. No longer can you talk to an IBM person directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.

Ed
Post by Charles Mills
https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/beauty-is-skin-deep-but-
stupid
-goes-right-to-the-bone-b1c28
Charles
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Paul Gilmartin
Post by John Eells
"IBM plans to discontinue delivery of z/OS platform products and service
on magnetic tape on July 1, 2018. ..."
Congratulations to IBM. This sounds the death nell for z/OS at this
install.
What will you do instead? Have you plans to convert to another supplier?
How long will it take? Will you stumble along without support or
upgrades?
Have you found a contractor who will convert optical media or network
to tape for you? Is that acceptable to your security people and to IBM
OCC?
-- gil
Told my manager this AM, he called IBM. They said yes it will be discontinued.
My manager called his VP. The VP started calling companies that will
be putting a bid in for conversion to Windows.
He has called 4 companies and they are coming in the next 3 weeks and
go over what is needed to convert everything off the MF to Windows.
The wiff of going poof is in the air.
Well its not like I am getting paid, I will be in full time retirement
Hope everybody is able to find jobs.
The only question now is timeframe.
I heard several people on the phone talking to their head hunters.
Ed
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Edward Gould
2018-03-28 04:33:41 UTC
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Post by Richards, Robert B.
Is your upper management watching the movies "The Net" or "War Games" on a loop? Paranoid much?
Do the words "SECURE TRANSMISSION" mean anything to them?
Consider that the world's wealth is running on IBM's z/OS operating systems. Virtually all of them get their OS upgrades electronically. But your company is "special"? <insert sarcastic smile>
How many other posters on this forum have ever said "me too" to the paranoia expressed in your posts?
I can’t get into much detail here other than to say NO to your first question. I will say this much this “company” is extremely sensitive on anything going or coming from the several floors the company owns and They regularly have sweeps for any incoming/outgoing transmissions (this includes telephone monitoring and an occasional searching of personal property coming in or going out. I have heard rumors of departments that undergo lie detector tests on an irregular basis. I am only able to “chat” on IBM-Main as i do not disclose company info. Like I said before I am getting to the edge and I will have to stop answering the questions because I can’t go into any detail. As to your last couple of sentences Up until recently we got everything on tape. Our company is something unique (I have been told) by IBMers and that is all I can say to that.
In am freely able to converse (but not name) companies I have worked for in the past. Which leaves me as my boss puts it anything That I have learned or did during my time here is strictly off limits on any job resumes/applications or for that matter credit applications. I am essentially retired and not working. When I have an possible APAR and I need to go over dumps I get a special number at IBM to call and they take care of everything and make sure there are no way the company name gets into the apar under any circumstances. Two times I have been called in after making the phone call to make sure nothing sensitive has been given out. They by now know that I do not give out any information and semi listen to the calls.

Ed


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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-26 22:23:43 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
Post by Charles Mills
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on 9-track
tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
You are missing the point. It is called the INTERNET. They do not want *anything* that a. Came through the internet. b. Does not come via FEDEX(or UPS) from IBM with signatures/id card
Think digital signatures transmitted via an independent channel.
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-turbo-fueled-carrier-pigeon-16116691.html

IBM products/service on DVD or Internet are digitally signed. On tape?
I remember 3480 cartridges coming from IBM in heat-sealed polyethylene
sleves guaranteeing virus protection.

If I understood certs, I'd mention that.
Post by Edward Gould
c. ... I have tried to bridge this a couple of times and was told to shut up and don’t say anything again.
Did they pay you $130,000.00, the going rate for that?
Post by Edward Gould
Assuming the current tape delivery is "outside data", how do you get it into the building?
Great* Grandfather Clause?

-- gil

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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 19:43:45 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Edward Gould
Post by Charles Mills
Goofiness.
Why didn't they convert to Windows when IBM stopped distribution on 9-track
tape? Or when the 2540 card reader was discontinued? Or the 407?
You are missing the point. It is called the INTERNET. They do not want *anything* that a. Came through the internet. b. Does not come via FEDEX(or UPS) from IBM with signatures/id card
Think digital signatures transmitted via an independent channel.
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-turbo-fueled-carrier-pigeon-16116691.html
IBM products/service on DVD or Internet are digitally signed. On tape?
I remember 3480 cartridges coming from IBM in heat-sealed polyethylene
sleves guaranteeing virus protection.
The sealed plastic envelope was a plus. But you did not read the rest of my entry. The tapes get sent directly to the auditing department. The box/envelope is unsealed there. The person checked the ID of the delivery agent. The person then calls somewhere within IBM to make sure that IBM sent the tape. The person after everything is checkout comes down to the department and the manager is the only one authorized to sign for it, I am his backup in case of illness/vacation etc. My boss or I must open the package in the presence of the auditor and verify everything is there (this is not fun)then sign the auditors receipt book. As per the auditor we must place the box into a locked room and the secretary has a sign in/out sheet which My boss or I can sign.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
If I understood certs, I'd mention that.
Post by Edward Gould
c. ... I have tried to bridge this a couple of times and was told to shut up and don’t say anything again.
Did they pay you $130,000.00, the going rate for that?
il:
This is their business not mine. They get to make the rules.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by Edward Gould
Assuming the current tape delivery is "outside data", how do you get it into the building?
Great* Grandfather Clause?
Like I said above the delivery guy has to have an ID and the package must be from a recognized sender of material. BTW there is no squawk about this from anyone that I am aware of.
Once delivery is accepted then our auditing department takes over the next step of verification. This was all set up long time before I showed up on the scene.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
-- gil
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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-27 01:29:52 UTC
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Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
​So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"? ​
Tell Ed again, how your employer's conversion to Windows (Linux?) went.

-- gil

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Doug
2018-03-27 01:57:45 UTC
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We all missed it, they are running in the cloud..Grins

.
Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
​So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"? ​
Tell Ed again, how your employer's conversion to Windows (Linux?) went.

-- gil

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Mike Schwab
2018-03-27 02:07:27 UTC
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Internal cloud? Or external (internet) cloud?
Post by Doug
We all missed it, they are running in the cloud..Grins
.
Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"?
Tell Ed again, how your employer's conversion to Windows (Linux?) went.
-- gil
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 21:16:46 UTC
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Post by Mike Schwab
Internal cloud? Or external (internet) cloud?
No to both.

Ed
Post by Mike Schwab
Post by Doug
We all missed it, they are running in the cloud..Grins
.
Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"?
Tell Ed again, how your employer's conversion to Windows (Linux?) went.
-- gil
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Edward Gould
2018-03-27 20:13:36 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by John McKown
Post by Edward Gould
Between the Auditor and the CEO they are of one voice. No outside data
(include DVD’s) are allowed. They have been quite vocal in this and insists
it be their way or noway.
​So, how will Windows be installed without using the Internet or a CD or a
DVD? And, wasn't the tape "outside data"? ​
Tell Ed again, how your employer's conversion to Windows (Linux?) went.
gil:

They own the company, they make the payroll, they get to make the decisions, not I.
Ed

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R.S.
2018-03-28 14:05:46 UTC
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Now it's a matter of belief.
I simply do not believe in some statements which I (roughly) collected
No DVD's are allowed.
ServerPac delivery box contain a lot of DVDs and CDs. What about them?

PTFs are not distributed on tape for some time. _ How it is adressed?
That issue is open and it is being discussed at high levels and
honestly I
don’t know if they have been given both sides, all I know is that I
was told to
stay out of the discussion.
That's evasion, not answer.

Company decided to migrate to Windows just because installation tapes
are no longer distributed.
Great reason, especially Microsoft does not distribute tapes.
It's really hard to believe it.


Auditor is calling IBM to "authenticate" the delivery - a box with
tapes, books, leaflets ancd DVDs.
What can he hear? What information can be got by the phone? A
confirmation the ServerPac was really sent?
I can do that using Internet access (Shopsz + DHL). IMHO it's much more
reliable than calling to more or less anonymous outsider.

...armed carrier truck pick the tape up at IBM - in the same message you
say it's FEDEX, and in other message > The person checked
the ID of the delivery agent.
It is contradictory and senseless.
I think the 43xx box was the death of IBM, thats my opinion. No
longer can you talk to an IBM person
  directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other
hand a certified check.
What???
I have heard rumors of departments that undergo lie detector tests on
an irregular basis.
And you write about it? Are you allowed to disclose it?
Not to mention how it is related to delivery media...
I am only able to “chat” on IBM-Main as i do not disclose company info.
I am essentially retired and not working.
That is beyond my (free) pay grade.
In my believe the company and the rules exist only in some imagined world.
Of course it is only my belief.


Regards
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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Edward Gould
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Post by R.S.
Now it's a matter of belief.
No DVD's are allowed.
ServerPac delivery box contain a lot of DVDs and CDs. What about them?
I got my boss’s OK and got a servpac box out and went through it. I did not see a singe dvd/cd in the box and did not see it marked in the inventory. So maybe Europe is getting different deliveries that the US
Post by R.S.
PTFs are not distributed on tape for some time. _ How it is adressed?
That issue is open and it is being discussed at high levels and honestly I
don’t know if they have been given both sides, all I know is that I was told to
stay out of the discussion.
That's evasion, not answer.
No its not as I can’t remember getting a single ptf on a tape for a couple of years, I think the number is two years ago but my mind could be wrong. I asked my boss about getting PTF’s in . What I ddid not know was that there is some service center that has done it for us in the past at a cost.
Post by R.S.
Company decided to migrate to Windows just because installation tapes are no longer distributed.
Great reason, especially Microsoft does not distribute tapes.
It's really hard to believe it.
Auditor is calling IBM to "authenticate" the delivery - a box with tapes, books, leaflets ancd DVDs.
What can he hear? What information can be got by the phone? A confirmation the ServerPac was really sent?
I can do that using Internet access (Shopsz + DHL). IMHO it's much more reliable than calling to more or less anonymous outsider.
They are happy with this situation what can I say?
Post by R.S.
...armed carrier truck pick the tape up at IBM - in the same message you say it's FEDEX, and in other message > The person checked
the ID of the delivery agent.
It is contradictory and senseless.
Not quite fun an armored car there is a guard there all the time and yes it is slow. As far as senseless each culture does something their unique way, I have been brought up to accept other peoples culture and help- them enrich it even further if that is what they want. If they don’t then we accept them as they are.
Post by R.S.
I think the 43xx box was the death of IBM, thats my opinion. No longer can you talk to an IBM person
directly unless you have a signed contract in hand and in the other hand a certified check.
What???
That is what happened in the US starting around 1995+-1 You no longer bought CPU’s from IBM you bought them from third parties. These third parties were made up of mostly ex IBMers. I asked a question of one of the third party people and was told I could no longer talk to IBM directly unless I had a contract in one hand and a check in the other hand I could not talk directly to a IBM with a technical question. This happened to me at two different customers, so I guessing its close to the truth. I get around these idiotic demands by calling IBM friends directly and yes it costs me a dinner every so often when he/she is in my city to I am their city. Its the price of dealing with IBM now days.
Post by R.S.
I have heard rumors of departments that undergo lie detector tests on an irregular basis.
And you write about it? Are you allowed to disclose it?
I talked with my boss today and heard the real story (according to him) there was a department that had disclosed some information they shouldn’t have, the number of lie detector test was around 10 people out of 70, so it was not the hole department, I apologize for saying incorrect information,
Post by R.S.
Not to mention how it is related to delivery media…
This was the auditing department and they are the ones that open all the boxes from IBM and OEM and go through them. Now I have no idea about what the issue was and why they were given lie detector tests.
Post by R.S.
I am only able to “chat” on IBM-Main as i do not disclose company info.
I am essentially retired and not working.
That is beyond my (free) pay grade.
In my believe the company and the rules exist only in some imagined world.
Of course it is only my belief.
Regards
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
======================================================================
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Barbara Nitz
2018-03-27 07:04:40 UTC
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Post by John Eells
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall,
download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal
network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed.
No, you cannot. Where I work, the laptops don't have a DVD/CD drive and are essentially just an expensive way of getting to a Citrix client. I cannot even reach the internet from my company laptop. All I can access is the company's extranet to set up the VPN tunnel. And heaven help you if your anti-virus definition isn't current. They update their antivirus catalog and then kick you out of VPN in the middle of working because 'definitions are not current'. And no USB or Bluetooth, either!
I am one of the lucky few to still have a desktop computer at work which has a DVD drive. They made it so that I cannot access that DVD drive anymore, not to mention no USB allowed.

We're lucky in that we have been able to set up the sysprog sandplex to access the internet for downloads from ShopZ.

Barbara

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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2018-03-27 07:13:08 UTC
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Of course, a logical measure. Taking a laptop out of the building, do something with it and take it back in again is just as 'safe' as bringing in a usb stick you found on the street. Both should be fully blocked.

Kees.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Barbara Nitz
Sent: 27 March, 2018 9:06
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall,
download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal
network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed.
No, you cannot. Where I work, the laptops don't have a DVD/CD drive and
are essentially just an expensive way of getting to a Citrix client. I
cannot even reach the internet from my company laptop. All I can access
is the company's extranet to set up the VPN tunnel. And heaven help you
if your anti-virus definition isn't current. They update their antivirus
catalog and then kick you out of VPN in the middle of working because
'definitions are not current'. And no USB or Bluetooth, either!
I am one of the lucky few to still have a desktop computer at work which
has a DVD drive. They made it so that I cannot access that DVD drive
anymore, not to mention no USB allowed.
We're lucky in that we have been able to set up the sysprog sandplex to
access the internet for downloads from ShopZ.
Barbara
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R.S.
2018-03-27 11:38:32 UTC
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No, no, and no.
Laptops are used (mostly) just to take them out of the company.
It doesn't mean you can do anything you want with the laptop. Some
things can be disable and other can be forbidden (do not try...).
Some companies use hardened setup for company laptops. In that case:
* no software can be installed by the user
* AV and other software is active
* all network connectivity is beind done through company firewall (yes,
even Google is accessed though the company) - like PC in an office.
* USB sticks are not allowed (disabled by software).

BTW: USB stick found on the street is one of the most dangerous things.
It can be prepared to simulate HID (a mouse) and then bypass many
protection leveles intended for USB *STORAGE*. Of course regular USB
stick with some recent virus is also not nice, but it's much easier to
detect.

BTW2: Why to not disable USB ports at all? To allow cameras,
microphones, mice (mouses?), etc. Of course laptop has most equipment
embedded.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Of course, a logical measure. Taking a laptop out of the building, do something with it and take it back in again is just as 'safe' as bringing in a usb stick you found on the street. Both should be fully blocked.
Kees.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Barbara Nitz
Sent: 27 March, 2018 9:06
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall,
download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal
network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed.
No, you cannot. Where I work, the laptops don't have a DVD/CD drive and
are essentially just an expensive way of getting to a Citrix client. I
cannot even reach the internet from my company laptop. All I can access
is the company's extranet to set up the VPN tunnel. And heaven help you
if your anti-virus definition isn't current. They update their antivirus
catalog and then kick you out of VPN in the middle of working because
'definitions are not current'. And no USB or Bluetooth, either!
I am one of the lucky few to still have a desktop computer at work which
has a DVD drive. They made it so that I cannot access that DVD drive
anymore, not to mention no USB allowed.
We're lucky in that we have been able to set up the sysprog sandplex to
access the internet for downloads from ShopZ.
Barbara
======================================================================


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Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku.

This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive.

mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa, www.mBank.pl, e-mail: ***@mBank.plSąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2018 r. kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 169.248.488 złotych.


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Mike Schwab
2018-03-27 18:14:31 UTC
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Don't forget USB sticks that charge capacitors from USB port then
discharge high voltage into USB port to damage the hardware.
http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/34784/hacking/killer-usb-burn-a-pc.html
Post by R.S.
No, no, and no.
Laptops are used (mostly) just to take them out of the company.
It doesn't mean you can do anything you want with the laptop. Some things
can be disable and other can be forbidden (do not try...).
* no software can be installed by the user
* AV and other software is active
* all network connectivity is beind done through company firewall (yes, even
Google is accessed though the company) - like PC in an office.
* USB sticks are not allowed (disabled by software).
BTW: USB stick found on the street is one of the most dangerous things. It
can be prepared to simulate HID (a mouse) and then bypass many protection
leveles intended for USB *STORAGE*. Of course regular USB stick with some
recent virus is also not nice, but it's much easier to detect.
BTW2: Why to not disable USB ports at all? To allow cameras, microphones,
mice (mouses?), etc. Of course laptop has most equipment embedded.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Of course, a logical measure. Taking a laptop out of the building, do
something with it and take it back in again is just as 'safe' as bringing in
a usb stick you found on the street. Both should be fully blocked.
Kees.
Post by Charles Mills
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Barbara Nitz
Sent: 27 March, 2018 9:06
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
In addition to that, you can take a laptop outside your firewall,
download stuff*, bring the laptop back in, connect to your internal
network, and upload it to z/OS to be processed.
No, you cannot. Where I work, the laptops don't have a DVD/CD drive and
are essentially just an expensive way of getting to a Citrix client. I
cannot even reach the internet from my company laptop. All I can access
is the company's extranet to set up the VPN tunnel. And heaven help you
if your anti-virus definition isn't current. They update their antivirus
catalog and then kick you out of VPN in the middle of working because
'definitions are not current'. And no USB or Bluetooth, either!
I am one of the lucky few to still have a desktop computer at work which
has a DVD drive. They made it so that I cannot access that DVD drive
anymore, not to mention no USB allowed.
We're lucky in that we have been able to set up the sysprog sandplex to
access the internet for downloads from ShopZ.
Barbara
======================================================================
--
Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku
przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być
jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś
adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej
przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie,
rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie
zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo,
prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale
usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub
zapisane na dysku.
This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is
intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be
received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If
you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorized
to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying,
distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be
punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender
immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete
permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved
to hard drive.
mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców
KRS 0000025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2018 r.
kapitał zakładowy mBanku S.A. (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 169.248.488
złotych.
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Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Tony Harminc
2018-03-27 22:37:14 UTC
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Post by R.S.
BTW: USB stick found on the street is one of the most dangerous things. It
can be prepared to simulate HID (a mouse) and then bypass many protection
leveles intended for USB *STORAGE*.
That would be the USB Rubber Ducky...
https://hakshop.com/products/usb-rubber-ducky-deluxe

Standard USB drive look, with easily exchanged cover and logo.
Convenient bundles of ten available. Doubtless others on Alibaba or
the like.

It's a dangerous corporate parking lot out there.

Tony H.

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John Eells
2018-03-27 14:13:26 UTC
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Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Of course, a logical measure. Taking a laptop out of the building, do something with it and take it back in again is just as 'safe' as bringing in a usb stick you found on the street. Both should be fully blocked.
<snip>

I don't agree that both are equally insecure. Downloads from at least
IBM's servers (and probably those used by any number of other software
vendors as well) use SSL. Thus, you at least "know," via the
certificate-based chain of trust, that you are downloading things from
an IBM server. You can also use firewall software and make the "hole"
in your firewall specific to an IP address, to provide further assurance
that it's an IBM server to which you are connected. Perfect? No. But
likely more secure than USB.

Why? There is an architectural vulnerability in USB, and malware
exploits are not detectable using AV software. I know that a number of
clients ban the use of any USB-attached device outright for this reason.
I'm told some even fill the USB ports with glue to assure compliance.

The larger issue, though, is the continued availability of acceptable
external attachment hardware. By "acceptable" I mean to both clients
and software vendors. We are withdrawing tape because few people use it
any more, not because of cost alone, or because "IBM doesn't care" (and,
to be frank, I rankle at that last suggestion).

We have no plans to support USB for z/OS platform software, and I would
not support such a plan. Currently, I plan for us to support DVD for as
long as it's viable; but, we foresee that optical drives will likely
become unavailable for new builds on workstations (including laptops) in
the next 5-10 years. This is not because of IBM, but because
(surprise!) fewer people want to order them these days. While we have
no current plans, I expect that when the DVD orders eventually drop low
enough, we will withdraw that support too.

If we are all lucky, someone will create something new that lacks the
vulnerability of USB, has the near-universiality that optical drives
once enjoyed, has a far-off obsolescence horizon, and allows us to
continue to use something we can put in an envelope or a box and send
clients.
--
John Eells
z/OS Platform Installation Strategy Owner
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-27 15:55:12 UTC
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Post by John Eells
Post by David Boyes
It’d be really slick if IBM reanimated the OMA/2 device with a native FICON adapter, even if it was just for this purpose. The ability to emulate a range of mainframe devices on commodity hardware has been really, really useful over the years.
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier
post.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s), I do know about AWSTAPE support (which was originally
written for the P390s). However, we do not, and have no plans to,
deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
Were there hardware available to read the files we do supply on DVD so
they could be written to the z/OS UNIX file system, I would find that
interesting.
Some years ago, I mounted a CD containing a product (ours, not IBM's)
on a desktop system with an FTP server and did RECEIVE FROMNETWORK.
Successful experiment; never proved useful.

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-27 16:00:28 UTC
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... I think the bigger issue is that IBM no longer makes a device that can directly read the DVD media from the mainframe without involving any other system..
HMC? VM? Linux? "no longer"?

-- gil

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David Boyes
2018-03-27 17:08:24 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
... I think the bigger issue is that IBM no longer makes a device that can directly read the DVD media from the mainframe without involving any other system..
HMC? VM? Linux? "no longer"?
The HMC DVD is not directly accessible to any operating system as a device with VM or Linux, and the interface to it is not a published one. IBM no longer markets the OMA/2 (2074-002), which was (AFAIK) the only device they ever made that let you directly access a DVD from the mainframe -- it was withdrawn in December 2003. Ours is really, really old and on life support.



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Christian Borntraeger
2018-03-27 17:29:24 UTC
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Post by David Boyes
Post by Paul Gilmartin
... I think the bigger issue is that IBM no longer makes a device that can directly read the DVD media from the mainframe without involving any other system..
HMC? VM? Linux? "no longer"?
The HMC DVD is not directly accessible to any operating system as a device with VM or Linux, and the interface to it is not a published one.
For Linux there is at least some support. There is the hmcdrv module and the
hmcdrvfs fuse tool in the s390-tools. I do not know how well this works and
if I remember correctly you have to have the LPAR authorized for that access.
I think it was authorized after you have done a load from DVD via HMC. I have
no idea if there are other means to authorize an LPAR.

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David Boyes
2018-03-27 18:45:44 UTC
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Post by Christian Borntraeger
For Linux there is at least some support. There is the hmcdrv module and the
hmcdrvfs fuse tool in the s390-tools. I do not know how well this works and
if I remember correctly you have to have the LPAR authorized for that access.
It's very slow and painful to use. I don't think I'd want to rely on it for any big files; it's seems to be very load sensitive and there's little or no error correction. You might have some luck by using the FTP FUSE module from Linux (which is also painfully slow, but it has some error checking and progress monitoring stuff built into it so it's not impossible to use). You'd probably have better luck enabling a NFS server from the underlying Linux system on the HMC if you were going to do any large file transfers; that would make it available from any OS that understands NFS. I'm pretty sure nothing in z/OS knows how to use it now, though and CP can't mount it as a volume.

Hmm. I wonder if VM could be taught to treat it as a unformatted FBA device, and then use something like the EXT2 tools Leland wrote a long time ago to access files on it. I don't think IBM would support it, but it might work.


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Tom Mathias
2018-03-27 17:28:22 UTC
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David,

Actually z/VM can read files from the HMC's CD/DVD drive (or USB port). Insert the media, which must be formatted for normal Windows/Linux use into the HMC and then on the HMC, you use the "Access Removable Media" task. The target is the LPAR you want to access the media and thru the task you allow the LPAR to access the media you select. You then get a message saying it is set up for use.

Then, in your z/VM guest running in that LPAR, you do an "ftp 127.0.0.1" (the loopback address) and then you do a "cd /../HMC:". This then points ftp to the media you inserted. Using z/VM's FTP, which was specially modified to know to route this "directory" thru the SE to the HMC, you can read files ("get"), change directories ("cd") and list the files...normal "ftp" commands.

The path isn't particularly speedy, but it means you don't need a separate control unit. Unfortunately, no other operating system implemented support to use the HMC's media. And it has been supported for a number of generations now.

Tom Mathias

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David Boyes
2018-03-27 19:38:59 UTC
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[snip]
Unfortunately, no other operating system implemented support to use the HMC's media.
Ugh. I can see why. That is seriously weird and obscure, and having to have a modified FTP client makes my skin crawl. I guess I can see the reasoning why it had to be done that way, but ... ick. Wouldn't a properly chroot'ed FTP or NFS server coupled with some management of iptables in the underlying Linux system have been more useful/compatible/anything?

Another idea: if you have a way to manufacture enough IP connectivity to the HMC, implementing enough of the APPC over IP verbs to make the DVD look like a remote SFS pool and teaching z/OS and the others how to access SFS? Use the LPAR name as userids in the SFS pool, so you can do access control, and that approach would let you do things like install zOS or zVM directly from the DVD without too much work. IBM certainly has the info and tools to do that without bastardizing a standard tool but I guess that would expose enough details about SFS to allow someone to write a replacement, so probably won't happen.

Ah, well. Can't reengineer the world. But I’d like to.




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Gary Eheman
2018-03-28 15:43:20 UTC
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Post by John Eells
Post by David Boyes
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
However, we do not, and have no plans to, deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
I'd quite forgotten about P370, in part because I don't know that it was
ever available external to IBM. It might well have been what the AWS*
things were ogiginally written for, and if so, I stand (well, sit, at
the moment) corrected.
But in any event, we have no plans to support AWSTAPE format for
software delivery in general. It's not at all clear to me that it would
solve anything that is not already solved by retrieving the files from a
workstation file system (hard drive or DVD), either, and until someone
shows me how it would be, I don't know why I'd support the effort to do
it. (And, as it happens, it's not actually trivial to implement it in
the software delivery process.)
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
I have quite enjoyed reading this thread in the digest version over the last few days.

For historical accuracy, I wanted to point out that service delivery on optical media from IBM is something that I personally was involved with in with IBM sofware delivery back in 1998-1999. Customers could first order service from IBM and request that the delivery media be CDROM instead of tape in early 1999. Preventive service (RSU) for VM could be ordered from IBM on CDROM in January 1999. Not sure why it could not be trivial for z/OS, but it, frankly, was trivial for VM. In March 1999, corrective service could be ordered on CDROM. So this really is not some new problem for IBM service delivery. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Though the web page about ptf service on CDROM media was up for year into the 2000 decade, it is no longer up on the VM website. You can still find it on the web archive wayback machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040822203309/http://www.vm.ibm.com:80/service/vmcd.html

I found a hard copy on my book shelf of the IBM S/390 Bulletin Issue 24 April 1999 which had an article on page 14 about the availability of service on CDROM. These bulletin documents which were produced out of Boeblingen by the S/390 division in both glossy hardcopy and pdf format contained articles of interest for the entire S/390 product line were available in pdf format for download, but I cannot find them online any longer.

I reckon that z/OS might finally exploit service delivery on optical media on demand one day, a mere 20 years later than VM first did it. I see little reason to reinvent the optical media wheel for service delivery, and I concur with John Eell's observation that optical media's days are numbered. This problem was solved at IBM long, long ago. Putting an emulated tape metadata file format on that media, whether OMA/2 or AWS, or a different metadata format should be trivial if it is really required. Emulated tape is not difficult. In our products at FSI, emulated tape was even extended across the Internet in encrypted format. Others have done it, too. The only way to avoid corrective service delivery is to write perfect code the first time to eliminate the need for corrective service. Good luck doing in that.

--
Gary Eheman
Funamental Software, Inc.

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John Eells
2018-03-28 17:55:38 UTC
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We have had DVD-based delivery 2011 for z/OS platform PTFs and products.
So, we're not quite 20 years behind z/VM (smile).

Also, it's not that writing a *different* format would be that
difficult, but that *adding* a format would be nontrivial. That
requires ordering and process options to be created in all the service
ordering portals, and then AWSTAPE support in the appropriate places to
read the DVD. Also, of course, it requires optical hardware that can be
z/OS-attached. At this point in the projected remaining lifetime for
optical media, I can't justify adding a new format, and converting from
one to another would be quite disruptive to customers, who would have to
be able to consume the new one.
Post by Gary Eheman
I have quite enjoyed reading this thread in the digest version over the last few days.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040822203309/http://www.vm.ibm.com:80/service/vmcd.html
I found a hard copy on my book shelf of the IBM S/390 Bulletin Issue 24 April 1999 which had an article on page 14 about the availability of service on CDROM. These bulletin documents which were produced out of Boeblingen by the S/390 division in both glossy hardcopy and pdf format contained articles of interest for the entire S/390 product line were available in pdf format for download, but I cannot find them online any longer.
I reckon that z/OS might finally exploit service delivery on optical media on demand one day, a mere 20 years later than VM first did it. I see little reason to reinvent the optical media wheel for service delivery, and I concur with John Eell's observation that optical media's days are numbered. This problem was solved at IBM long, long ago. Putting an emulated tape metadata file format on that media, whether OMA/2 or AWS, or a different metadata format should be trivial if it is really required. Emulated tape is not difficult. In our products at FSI, emulated tape was even extended across the Internet in encrypted format. Others have done it, too. The only way to avoid corrective service delivery is to write perfect code the first time to eliminate the need for corrective service. Good luck doing in that.
<snip>
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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R.S.
2018-03-29 09:59:13 UTC
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Post by John Eells
We have had DVD-based delivery 2011 for z/OS platform PTFs and
products.  So, we're not quite 20 years behind z/VM (smile).
Also, it's not that writing a *different* format would be that
difficult, but that *adding* a format would be nontrivial.  That
requires ordering and process options to be created in all the service
ordering portals, and then AWSTAPE support in the appropriate places
to read the DVD.  Also, of course, it requires optical hardware that
can be z/OS-attached.  At this point in the projected remaining
lifetime for optical media, I can't justify adding a new format, and
converting from one to another would be quite disruptive to customers,
who would have to be able to consume the new one.
IMHO there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
There is very good and cheap both: optical and USBstick device attached
to a mainframe: it is PC. Every mainframe shop do have PC or can afford it.
The formats like AWSTAPE add unnecessary level of complexity. Any media
used should be treated a s bunch of files - just like electronic
delivery or DVD delivery; and in fact tape delivery.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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David Boyes
2018-03-29 14:55:57 UTC
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Post by R.S.
The formats like AWSTAPE add unnecessary level of complexity. Any media
used should be treated a s bunch of files - just like electronic
delivery or DVD delivery; and in fact tape delivery.
FWIW, doing a quick Google search turned up file 477 on the CBT tape that provides MVS utilities to manipulate AWSTAPE virtual tapes. http://www.cbttape.org/awstape.htm discusses it further. CMS Pipelines also has an AWSTAPE stage that does it. So, any way you can get one simple sequential binary file to the system in question is good enough once you get the service envelope via whatever means you get it.

I think we've gotten into a rathole about optical media -- there is *nothing* in AWSTAPE that requires optical media; it just currently happens to be a cheap way to transport a reasonably large quantity of bits from A to B while preserving the capability to maintain customer chain of custody requirements, and at least from my viewpoint, it requires the least amount of rework from IBM to support -- not zero, but enabling an existing option for a new set of data has to be easier than a whole new concept. As Gary pointed out, IBM already has the necessary production capabilities and tooling to do it and has been doing it for quite a while for VM.



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Jesse 1 Robinson
2018-03-28 17:42:02 UTC
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Long before IBM talked about the end of tape delivery, we stopped accepting any physical media whatever--even doc. The reason was rooted in legal classification of software for tax purposes. In order to be extra careful, we eschewed not only tape/DVD for software itself, but also for any supporting function as well. The cost of getting levied with ordinary sales tax would have been significant.

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Eheman
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 8:45 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by John Eells
Post by David Boyes
Ah, so that's what you meant. I hadn't inferred that from your earlier post.
Sorry, replies crossed in the ether.
As the original builder of the ADCD systems (originally created to
support P390s)
Didn't the P370 also support AWSTAPE? I don't remember -- that was a long time ago. Or were you just using P390 as a generic term?
However, we do not, and have no plans to, deliver the DVD files in AWSTAPE format.
I'd quite forgotten about P370, in part because I don't know that it
was ever available external to IBM. It might well have been what the
AWS* things were ogiginally written for, and if so, I stand (well, sit,
at the moment) corrected.
But in any event, we have no plans to support AWSTAPE format for
software delivery in general. It's not at all clear to me that it
would solve anything that is not already solved by retrieving the files
from a workstation file system (hard drive or DVD), either, and until
someone shows me how it would be, I don't know why I'd support the
effort to do it. (And, as it happens, it's not actually trivial to
implement it in the software delivery process.)
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
I have quite enjoyed reading this thread in the digest version over the last few days.

For historical accuracy, I wanted to point out that service delivery on optical media from IBM is something that I personally was involved with in with IBM sofware delivery back in 1998-1999. Customers could first order service from IBM and request that the delivery media be CDROM instead of tape in early 1999. Preventive service (RSU) for VM could be ordered from IBM on CDROM in January 1999. Not sure why it could not be trivial for z/OS, but it, frankly, was trivial for VM. In March 1999, corrective service could be ordered on CDROM. So this really is not some new problem for IBM service delivery. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Though the web page about ptf service on CDROM media was up for year into the 2000 decade, it is no longer up on the VM website. You can still find it on the web archive wayback machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20040822203309/http://www.vm.ibm.com:80/service/vmcd.html

I found a hard copy on my book shelf of the IBM S/390 Bulletin Issue 24 April 1999 which had an article on page 14 about the availability of service on CDROM. These bulletin documents which were produced out of Boeblingen by the S/390 division in both glossy hardcopy and pdf format contained articles of interest for the entire S/390 product line were available in pdf format for download, but I cannot find them online any longer.

I reckon that z/OS might finally exploit service delivery on optical media on demand one day, a mere 20 years later than VM first did it. I see little reason to reinvent the optical media wheel for service delivery, and I concur with John Eell's observation that optical media's days are numbered. This problem was solved at IBM long, long ago. Putting an emulated tape metadata file format on that media, whether OMA/2 or AWS, or a different metadata format should be trivial if it is really required. Emulated tape is not difficult. In our products at FSI, emulated tape was even extended across the Internet in encrypted format. Others have done it, too. The only way to avoid corrective service delivery is to write perfect code the first time to eliminate the need for corrective service. Good luck doing in that.

--
Gary Eheman
Funamental Software, Inc.


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Edward Gould
2018-03-29 05:19:00 UTC
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Post by Jesse 1 Robinson
Long before IBM talked about the end of tape delivery, we stopped accepting any physical media whatever--even doc. The reason was rooted in legal classification of software for tax purposes. In order to be extra careful, we eschewed not only tape/DVD for software itself, but also for any supporting function as well. The cost of getting levied with ordinary sales tax would have been significant.
.
Skip:
I think it was either last summer or autumn I did an informal survey of DC’s in the Chicago area.
1. would not except tapes
2. received sent 10 a month
3 received 50 a month
4 Sent;/received over 100

Ed
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Phil Smith
2018-03-29 14:37:45 UTC
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Ah, remember the good old days: 9370 microcode updates-as several boxes of floppies!

This is indeed a fascinating discussion. Amazing how wildly different companies' media requirements are.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm reminded of an early manager who, when I asked whether something IBM wanted us to sign to give us something we needed should be vetted by our lawyer, said "Don't bother. IBM's lawyers can beat up our lawyers." This is going to be true of most, but not all, of the companies involved here. So if one of the big ones puts its foot down, IBM may have to blink, or at least consider blinking.
--

...phsiii

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-29 18:14:05 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith
Ah, remember the good old days: 9370 microcode updates-as several boxes of floppies!
(I keep thinking about punched cards.)
Post by Phil Smith
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm reminded of an early manager who, when I asked whether something IBM wanted us to sign to give us something we needed should be vetted by our lawyer, said "Don't bother. IBM's lawyers can beat up our lawyers." This is going to be true of most, but not all, of the companies involved here. So if one of the big ones puts its foot down, IBM may have to blink, or at least consider blinking.
--
Are you suggesting that there may be extant contracts requiring IBM to provide
continuing updates/corrective service on 3480 cartridges?
Post by Phil Smith
Post by R.S.
The formats like AWSTAPE add unnecessary level of complexity. Any media
used should be treated a s bunch of files - just like electronic
delivery or DVD delivery; and in fact tape delivery.
FWIW, doing a quick Google search turned up file 477 on the CBT tape that provides MVS utilities to manipulate AWSTAPE virtual tapes. http://www.cbttape.org/awstape.htm discusses it further. CMS Pipelines also has an AWSTAPE stage that does it. So, any way you can get one simple sequential binary file to the system in question is good enough once you get the service envelope via whatever means you get it.
I think we've gotten into a rathole about optical media -- there is *nothing* in AWSTAPE that requires optical media;
...
A PTF, of course, can be just FB 80 EBCDIC "simple sequential binary file".

Several years ago, my employer began delivering FUNCTIONs as pax archives
of SMPNTS trees either on CD or via network. (My idea; I was delighted when
John Eells at SHARE Denver said IBM was moving to something very similar.)

A pax archive is "one simple sequential binary file". "pax -vr" is in base z/OS,
as is SM/E RECEIVE FROMNTS; no need even to go to CBT tape and assemble
a utility.

The loudest complaint that reached me (but my employer protected me pretty
well) was, "Why not TSO TRANSMIT format instead (too?)" I said, "Because."
"Does IBM deliver any of its own products that way?" Alas, whining customer
cited one (which was a from a recently acquired subsidiary). My employer
decided I had higher priorities.

-- gil

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Seymour J Metz
2018-03-29 20:19:19 UTC
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AFAIK, IBM supplied microcode on cards only for the 360/25 and for the 7090 compatibility microcode on the 360/85 WCS. Most of the S/360 models either were hard wired or had microcode in ROS, while the S/370 models either had ROS or loaded microcode from 8" floppies.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <0000000433f07816-dmarc-***@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:15 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Phil Smith
Ah, remember the good old days: 9370 microcode updates-as several boxes of floppies!
(I keep thinking about punched cards.)
Post by Phil Smith
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm reminded of an early manager who, when I asked whether something IBM wanted us to sign to give us something we needed should be vetted by our lawyer, said "Don't bother. IBM's lawyers can beat up our lawyers." This is going to be true of most, but not all, of the companies involved here. So if one of the big ones puts its foot down, IBM may have to blink, or at least consider blinking.
--
Are you suggesting that there may be extant contracts requiring IBM to provide
continuing updates/corrective service on 3480 cartridges?
Post by Phil Smith
Post by R.S.
The formats like AWSTAPE add unnecessary level of complexity. Any media
used should be treated a s bunch of files - just like electronic
delivery or DVD delivery; and in fact tape delivery.
FWIW, doing a quick Google search turned up file 477 on the CBT tape that provides MVS utilities to manipulate AWSTAPE virtual tapes. http://secure-web.cisco.com/1TodMDGF2pK0HPuZiEybixwkKcBK3B_qcQqrWRpvRFprK3tJVJItqULnFkUH9k9VuFm0WEptiO4fog2D0w8o2Mi7or1Ewzqn775-E3KsfZI7Muy8Ap1MB8esllRK7V5OQBJrEyQxNh61DxMPVCVTYVoT2dL0NInJIFVXwXHHOgfTnM7Nsts-PBK6j6AJczwg6Ciy_ZxYiHzyprIO0VEjQxzdwTo-DpcPAyFsQlAHdX-0W7prZ05rkwljJ-S4ZF7JyeVHiE1WoEUJ3Q563fXD_0QiIuNJrUOdoKmOZ-BkKEOnknedn5eLGLiJO9cBpPiyiF9mgHDjW_qVpWhRyUdDX4mMsuLFO3-B5j2DIbdtk9xNa_Tzpqkw37UCBklVcQuFpGhb2sgyDXZryp5RwXjIVXTzdGHgTbSR_ZDzG8kNLQzIQaH9ZRWTiy0aEKHJ9JxVV/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbttape.org%2Fawstape.htm discusses it further. CMS Pipelines also has an AWSTAPE stage that does it. So, any way you can get one simple sequential binary file to the system in question is good enough once you get the service envelope via whatever means you get it.
I think we've gotten into a rathole about optical media -- there is *nothing* in AWSTAPE that requires optical media;
...
A PTF, of course, can be just FB 80 EBCDIC "simple sequential binary file".

Several years ago, my employer began delivering FUNCTIONs as pax archives
of SMPNTS trees either on CD or via network. (My idea; I was delighted when
John Eells at SHARE Denver said IBM was moving to something very similar.)

A pax archive is "one simple sequential binary file". "pax -vr" is in base z/OS,
as is SM/E RECEIVE FROMNTS; no need even to go to CBT tape and assemble
a utility.

The loudest complaint that reached me (but my employer protected me pretty
well) was, "Why not TSO TRANSMIT format instead (too?)" I said, "Because."
"Does IBM deliver any of its own products that way?" Alas, whining customer
cited one (which was a from a recently acquired subsidiary). My employer
decided I had higher priorities.

-- gil

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Pew, Curtis G
2018-03-29 20:33:29 UTC
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Post by Seymour J Metz
AFAIK, IBM supplied microcode on cards only for the 360/25 and for the 7090 compatibility microcode on the 360/85 WCS. Most of the S/360 models either were hard wired or had microcode in ROS, while the S/370 models either had ROS or loaded microcode from 8" floppies.
My father, who was an IBM SE back in the day, told me the 360/30 microcode was on copper-clad punch cards.

He said they had a customer that was using the 1401 emulation that was available on the 360/30, but they had always ordered their 1401s with a special custom feature that hadn’t been included in the emulation. IBM sent out their microcode expert who asked what the opcode was for the function. When they told him, he got out some paper, did some calculations, and announced, “If you do that, it will rewind and unload the tape drive.”

They said “Yes, that’s what happens when we run our programs.”

He said, “What do you want it to do?” and they described what their 1401s did with that instruction. He did some more calculating, then pulled out some blank copper-clad cards, pulled out a hole punch, punched a bunch of holes in the cards, and said, “Here, stick these in and try it.” So they did, and then their programs ran just as they had on the custom 1401s.
--
Pew, Curtis G
***@austin.utexas.edu
ITS Systems/Core/Administrative Services


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Seymour J Metz
2018-03-29 20:36:52 UTC
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360/40 Transormer Read Only Storage (TROS)

360/50 Capacitor Read Only Storage

I believe that the 65 and 67 also used CROS; I'm not sure of the 85.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Pew, Curtis G <***@AUSTIN.UTEXAS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 4:34 PM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Seymour J Metz
AFAIK, IBM supplied microcode on cards only for the 360/25 and for the 7090 compatibility microcode on the 360/85 WCS. Most of the S/360 models either were hard wired or had microcode in ROS, while the S/370 models either had ROS or loaded microcode from 8" floppies.
My father, who was an IBM SE back in the day, told me the 360/30 microcode was on copper-clad punch cards.

He said they had a customer that was using the 1401 emulation that was available on the 360/30, but they had always ordered their 1401s with a special custom feature that hadn’t been included in the emulation. IBM sent out their microcode expert who asked what the opcode was for the function. When they told him, he got out some paper, did some calculations, and announced, “If you do that, it will rewind and unload the tape drive.”

They said “Yes, that’s what happens when we run our programs.”

He said, “What do you want it to do?” and they described what their 1401s did with that instruction. He did some more calculating, then pulled out some blank copper-clad cards, pulled out a hole punch, punched a bunch of holes in the cards, and said, “Here, stick these in and try it.” So they did, and then their programs ran just as they had on the custom 1401s.


--
Pew, Curtis G
***@austin.utexas.edu
ITS Systems/Core/Administrative Services


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David Boyes
2018-03-29 21:24:25 UTC
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Post by Seymour J Metz
I believe that the 65 and 67 also used CROS; I'm not sure of the 85.
The 3 65s at NASA JSC had microcode loadable from tape, or at least those 3 machines did. I have one of the ucode update tapes (it fixed bugs in some instructions) for those machines sitting on my bookshelf across the room right now. Wouldn't put it past them that those 3 machines were special though; back then NASA could ask for engineering changes directly from POK and usually got them if it was humanly possible, and they had a number of non-standard RPQ features that never saw any other customer.

IBM was really proud of those machines; they were kept in a runnable state into the late 1980s because of reproducibility requirements in the contract. It was a crying shame that onsite parts depot went for metals recovery -- we could have rebuilt 2 of those 3 machines onsite from the floor bolts up if one had failed during a mission (they assumed that would buy enough time for IBM to manufacture the 3rd machine in POK and ship it by air). JSC Building 25 still had the extra bracing in the floor for the frame mountings for years after.



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David Boyes
2018-03-29 21:24:44 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
Are you suggesting that there may be extant contracts requiring IBM to provide
continuing updates/corrective service on 3480 cartridges?
I doubt that IBM would ever tell us that, but I read Phil's comment as "more like one or more zBLC member organization or some 200K+ MIPS customer goes to IBM and says "sorry, not an acceptable risk. Try again."".
Post by Paul Gilmartin
A PTF, of course, can be just FB 80 EBCDIC "simple sequential binary file".
Agreed, although I'd argue that any fix should have accompanying metadata that gets incorporated into the system service inventory tool without having to extract the fix, so any fix would be at minimum 2 files.
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Several years ago, my employer began delivering FUNCTIONs as pax archives
of SMPNTS trees either on CD or via network. (My idea; I was delighted when
John Eells at SHARE Denver said IBM was moving to something very similar.)
A pax archive is "one simple sequential binary file". "pax -vr" is in base z/OS,
as is SM/E RECEIVE FROMNTS; no need even to go to CBT tape and assemble
a utility.
I think we're solving different facets of the problem now.

Your idea addresses the 'once the ptf file is on my system, what do I do with it?' - the contents of the individual fix files. I don't think it addresses the issue of how do we support people who need various kinds of physical media delivery without a flag day moment of one delivery method or another. What I'm bargaining for is that we agree on a way to format the fix package that can be delivered either over the network OR via some kind of physical media WITHOUT having to incur the overhead of repackaging anything. The "tape image" metaphor lets us leverage a common delivery format whether the input is a disk file or a tape or a card deck or a mind link with Zog Prime (that last one is a challenge) AND we can move between them freely with minimal or no effort. I agree wholeheartedly that packing fixes into pax or RECEIVE FROMNTS files would be a viable thing to do for individual APARs. If it could also handle VM SES format fixes, ++good on us.

The CBT comment was more a 'here's some free things that can do this if you've never played with the idea"; for this I'd want to learn from the experience that the VMers had with distribution of useful Linux things like appliances and stuff that had to be surfaced at the VM level, like entire virtual machine disk images. The only tool we had was VMARC format over channels that didn't support maintaining file attributes or record boundaries; we went with the community-provided tool route to avoid inventing a wheel, and it's probably been the biggest PITA in getting things moved around between sites. IBM eventually created Yet Another Tool that was installed with a standard system, but inertia still is a hindrance (30+ years of using VMARC is a big habit to break), as is lack of documentation of the IBM tool outside IBM. Think about AMATERSE and how it got out, and the resulting hassles with that.





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David Boyes
2018-03-29 19:43:28 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith
Ah, remember the good old days: 9370 microcode updates-as several boxes of floppies!
Or those *[unprintable]* 4mm tape cartridges in the ES/9000s. Or the 8" floppies in the 43XX machines. Or the 5.25 floppies in the 3174. Or 7 track reels on the 360s...

*sigh* "Teacher, may I be excused? My brain is full..."



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Edward Finnell
2018-03-29 20:03:17 UTC
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What about the 'PUT tapes' delivered on uFiche? We had Datagrafix? fiche readers with ammonia based printers. After a weekend of updates my head would hurt for real! 


In a message dated 3/29/2018 2:45:11 PM Central Standard Time, ***@SINENOMINE.NET writes:

 
the 8" floppies in the 43XX machines. Or the 5.25 floppies in the 3174. Or 7 track reels on the 360s...


*sigh* "Teacher, may I be excused? My brain is full..."

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David Boyes
2018-03-29 21:42:02 UTC
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What about the 'PUT tapes' delivered on uFiche? We had Datagrafix? fiche readers with ammonia based printers. After a weekend of updates my head would hurt for real!
No joke. I had to keep a fiche reader/printer functioning until around 1992 to support reading some old DEC licensed source code for TOPS-20 and VMS.
I have a lasting and persistent hatred for those beasts.


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Edward Finnell
2018-03-29 21:46:31 UTC
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Think we kept a couple  well into the 90's for 'go back' purposes. Our crack IBM CE even ordered the special filter for the 3800 to keep ammonia from crystallizing on the corona wire.


In a message dated 3/29/2018 4:43:35 PM Central Standard Time, ***@SINENOMINE.NET writes:

 
I have a lasting and persistent hatred for those beasts.

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Phil Smith
2018-03-29 20:58:10 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
(I keep thinking about punched cards.)
Yeah, I *almost* went there!
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Are you suggesting that there may be extant contracts requiring IBM to provide
continuing updates/corrective service on 3480 cartridges?
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit, and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK might blink. Or not.

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R.S.
2018-03-30 10:36:51 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit, and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full
capacity , but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree
for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




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John McKown
2018-03-30 13:17:36 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit,
and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK
might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full capacity
, but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
​I remember back in the 1980s that Texas A&M University got some S/370 that
had "burnt orange" ​panels. That's the school color.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Steve Smith
2018-03-30 13:25:09 UTC
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Now I have to correct you there! I was a student at A&M in the mid-70s,
and also worked as a student operator at the DPC . I assure you A&M's
school colors are MAROON & white (burnt orange belongs to that silly little
school in Austin), and Amdahl did trim our new 470/V6 in MAROON.
Few people saw it though, as it was kept in a room by itself, kept at about
60 degrees. The powers that be were paranoid about it overheating (Amdahls
were air-cooled, as long as they had power for the fans; otherwise they
melted).

sas
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by R.S.
Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit,
and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK
might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full
capacity
Post by R.S.
, but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
​I remember back in the 1980s that Texas A&M University got some S/370 that
had "burnt orange" ​panels. That's the school color.
Post by R.S.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Seymour J Metz
2018-03-30 16:34:11 UTC
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I might believe 470V/6.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Steve Smith <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 9:26 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued

Now I have to correct you there! I was a student at A&M in the mid-70s,
and also worked as a student operator at the DPC . I assure you A&M's
school colors are MAROON & white (burnt orange belongs to that silly little
school in Austin), and Amdahl did trim our new 470/V6 in MAROON.
Few people saw it though, as it was kept in a room by itself, kept at about
60 degrees. The powers that be were paranoid about it overheating (Amdahls
were air-cooled, as long as they had power for the fans; otherwise they
melted).

sas
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by R.S.
Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit,
and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK
might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full
capacity
Post by R.S.
, but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
​I remember back in the 1980s that Texas A&M University got some S/370 that
had "burnt orange" ​panels. That's the school color.
Post by R.S.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Pew, Curtis G
2018-03-30 16:53:30 UTC
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Post by Seymour J Metz
I might believe 470V/6.
The SYSNAME for our production LPAR is still ‘V470’, since that’s the machine the MVS conversion was done on.

Of course, no one here at THE University of Texas had a problem with the burnt orange panels.
--
Pew, Curtis G
***@austin.utexas.edu
ITS Systems/Core/Administrative Services
The University of Texas at Austin

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Steve Smith
2018-03-30 20:10:10 UTC
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Believe what you like, but not everyone has eidetic memory over a 40-year
span. Besides, Amdahl's placement of the slash was illogical, and was
often misplaced even then.

sas
Post by Seymour J Metz
I might believe 470V/6.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-29 21:25:18 UTC
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Post by Phil Smith
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Are you suggesting that there may be extant contracts requiring IBM to provide
continuing updates/corrective service on 3480 cartridges?
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit, and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK might blink. Or not.
That's not lawyers; that's marketing.

But can anyone with 58,000MSUs make that threat credibly nowadays? (Well,
I suppose Ed. G.) Where's Amdahl when you need them?

But it can certainly address the issue of how the customer might add capacity
for new function.

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-29 21:56:04 UTC
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Post by Paul Gilmartin
A PTF, of course, can be just FB 80 EBCDIC "simple sequential binary file".
For RECFM=FB, the record boundaries are implicit; easily reconstructed.
Agree , although I'd argue that any fix should have accompanying metadata that gets incorporated into the system service inventory tool without having to extract the fix, so any fix would be at minimum 2 files.
Most recently, my employer adopted a standard format for all platforms (z was
a niche market for them). Two files: README.{txt|html(|.doc?)} and any .zip file.
So, SMNTS.pax.zip. And the SMPNTS is many pax.Z payload files plus
metadata. Gasp!
Post by Paul Gilmartin
A pax archive is "one simple sequential binary file". "pax -vr" is in base z/OS,
as is SM/E RECEIVE FROMNTS; no need even to go to CBT tape and assemble
a utility.
I think we're solving different facets of the problem now.
... The "tape image" metaphor lets us leverage a common delivery format whether the input is a disk file or a tape or a card deck or a mind link with Zog Prime (that last one is a challenge) AND we can move between them freely with minimal or no effort.
pax.Z is a flat file. Any binary tranfer works. I even experimented
successfully with using "jar" to extract the pax.Z.zip, but thought it
best to leave the customers to their own devices to deal with the .zip.
(Note today's pleas here for help with new java release.)
I agree wholeheartedly that packing fixes into pax or RECEIVE FROMNTS files would be a viable thing to do for individual APARs.
Individual APARS are fixed-80 flat files (which company standard required us to zip).
If it could also handle VM SES format fixes, ++good on us.
... The only tool we had was VMARC format over channels that didn't support maintaining file attributes or record boundaries; we went with the community-provided tool route to avoid inventing a wheel, ...
We shied away from VMARC because of the "community provided" part. Perhaps
we had too much the MVS mindset -- the VM mindset is more tolerant of diversity.

Rather, we went with COPYFILE (PACK, not for the compression but for the flattening.
We used VMFLPCD then COPYFILE (PACK for VMSES/E.
Think about AMATERSE and how it got out, and the resulting hassles with that.
Must I? Too many DSORGs has impelled to too many archive formats.

-- gil

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-03-29 21:59:37 UTC
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Post by Edward Finnell
Think we kept a couple  well into the 90's for 'go back' purposes. Our crack IBM CE even ordered the special filter for the 3800 to keep ammonia from crystallizing on the corona wire.
Crystallized ammonia at room temperature? I gotta reread my Rubber Bible.
Post by Edward Finnell
 
I have a lasting and persistent hatred for those beasts.
I was afraid of the stuff, whatever it was.

-- gil

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Charles Mills
2018-03-29 22:56:42 UTC
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Chemical Rubber Company -- I had forgotten that. Still in print:
https://www.crcpress.com/CRC-Handbook-of-Chemistry-and-Physics-98th-Edition/Rumble/p/book/9781498784542
or http://bit.ly/2pSMrp1

Probably an ammonium salt. Sulfate? Carbonate? Chloride?

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 3:01 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Think we kept a couple well into the 90's for 'go back' purposes. Our crack IBM CE even ordered the special filter for the 3800 to keep ammonia from crystallizing on the corona wire.
Crystallized ammonia at room temperature? I gotta reread my Rubber Bible.

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Timothy Sipples
2018-03-30 11:00:39 UTC
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I'm a little confused here. For those of you who would like:

* physical media delivery
* of z/OS products
* installed without any intermediate systems

I believe IBM has you covered, already. You simply order the DVDs, insert
each DVD into the IBM Z machine's Hardware Management Console's DVD drive,
and use the "Enable FTP Access to Mass Storage Media" task:

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/HW11P_2.13.1/com.ibm.hwmca.kc_hmc.doc/enable/stepsenableftpaccesstomassstoragemedia.html

Then you move the contents of the DVD into your z/OS system using FTP
across that very closed HMC network. (I'm quite sure z/OS supports FTP.)
There's no intermediate PC or other system to worry about in the loop, the
process is completely disconnected from any external or even internal
networks (nothing beyond the IBM Z boundary), and you still have
IBM-supplied physical media that you can track, log, audit, stare at,
whatever -- read-only physical media that happens to be flatter, lighter,
and easier to carry. You can place the HMC under armed guard, point a video
surveillance camera at it, mount it in a caged rack, surround it with
Mission Impossible-style laser and pressure sensors, or whatever, as you
prefer.

I prefer/recommend the digitally signed and network delivered path, but
you've got choices.

So what am I missing? Does that delivery path work?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Edward Gould
2018-03-30 20:03:42 UTC
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Post by Timothy Sipples
* physical media delivery
* of z/OS products
* installed without any intermediate systems
I believe IBM has you covered, already. You simply order the DVDs, insert
each DVD into the IBM Z machine's Hardware Management Console's DVD drive,
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/HW11P_2.13.1/com.ibm.hwmca.kc_hmc.doc/enable/stepsenableftpaccesstomassstoragemedia.html
Then you move the contents of the DVD into your z/OS system using FTP
across that very closed HMC network. (I'm quite sure z/OS supports FTP.)
There's no intermediate PC or other system to worry about in the loop, the
process is completely disconnected from any external or even internal
networks (nothing beyond the IBM Z boundary), and you still have
IBM-supplied physical media that you can track, log, audit, stare at,
whatever -- read-only physical media that happens to be flatter, lighter,
and easier to carry. You can place the HMC under armed guard, point a video
surveillance camera at it, mount it in a caged rack, surround it with
Mission Impossible-style laser and pressure sensors, or whatever, as you
prefer.
I prefer/recommend the digitally signed and network delivered path, but
you've got choices.
So what am I missing? Does that delivery path work?
Timothy:
I have heard about this method and I have read on here varying degrees of success(or not). Has this method ever been done for CBPDO/CBIPO/ or you other offerings?Would it even fit on a mod54?
I am open to it as long as it is extremely secure and doesn’t take 5 days (or more). IMNO this might work for a PTF or two but several DVD’s worth??
I am still puzzled on how you get this from the PC to the mainframe. Also, while I am at it you would need enough disk specie on the PC to hold all this data, I don’t think they make a big enough HD for the PC, do they?
Our computer room is very secure. I am not even allowed to touch the HMC without a VP looking over my shoulder and asking everything I do, while he dictates into a recorder, I am not sure how they would take me putting in and out dvd’s that certainly will cause a ripple. While there is no video cam (at least that I am aware of that points to the HMC) there are at least 20 camera’s recording everything at or near a console, several in the tape vault enter/exit/inside and one looking in at the elevator and a few others that I don’t remember. If there are any on here that have done a offering through the HMC I would love to hear your success/failures.

Ed

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Edward Gould
2018-04-02 20:03:46 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
I have heard about this method and I have read on here varying degrees of success(or not). Has this method ever been done for CBPDO/CBIPO/ or you other offerings?Would it even fit on a mod54?
I am open to it as long as it is extremely secure and doesn’t take 5 days (or more). IMNO this might work for a PTF or two but several DVD’s worth??
I am still puzzled on how you get this from the PC to the mainframe. Also, while I am at it you would need enough disk specie on the PC to hold all this data, I don’t think they make a big enough HD for the PC, do they?
Our computer room is very secure. I am not even allowed to touch the HMC without a VP looking over my shoulder and asking everything I do, while he dictates into a recorder, I am not sure how they would take me putting in and out dvd’s that certainly will cause a ripple. While there is no video cam (at least that I am aware of that points to the HMC) there are at least 20 camera’s recording everything at or near a console, several in the tape vault enter/exit/inside and one looking in at the elevator and a few others that I don’t remember. If there are any on here that have done a offering through the HMC I would love to hear your success/failures.
Ed
Funny thing I was curious as to the HMC and security. This afternoon I was up in the computer room and casually walked around to the HMC. I was looking at it and all of a sudden I heard a bell going off and about 30 seconds later two security people come up behind me and basically did an interrogation of me why I was doing back here . I said I was curious as to what version of software the HMC was running and did not want to do anything until I had my bosses approval. One of them read me the riot act about being in an area I am not supposed to be in. He wanted my badge number and he called it in and I got the OK to be there but not to touch.
I went back to my desk and informed my boss. He told me to tell him before I go near the HMC to tell him. I think they have motion sensors as I sure did not see any camera(s).

Ed


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Jesse 1 Robinson
2018-03-30 21:50:34 UTC
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Ooh. Thanks for the new word!

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
323-715-0595 Mobile
626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW
***@sce.com


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:12 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: (External):Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued

Believe what you like, but not everyone has eidetic memory over a 40-year span. Besides, Amdahl's placement of the slash was illogical, and was often misplaced even then.

sas
Post by Seymour J Metz
I might believe 470V/6.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
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Edward Finnell
2018-03-30 22:13:55 UTC
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Guess early on we were entertained by tales of Von Neumann's exploits into to numerous mathematical forays and his ability to find previously unpublished solutions and his eidetic memory-Even phone books. 

 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann#Cognitive_abilities
 
The other one was the entrance of Princeton was lined with trees where he rammed his sportster into them while reading the morning paper on the way to work!
 
In a message dated 3/30/2018 4:52:11 PM Central Standard Time, ***@SCE.COM writes:

 
Ooh. Thanks for the new word!

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Dave Jones
2018-03-31 15:27:55 UTC
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Howdy, Steve.

I, too, as a student at TAMU in the early to mid 70s and what I remember was that it was an Amdahl 470/V6 that was delivered to the DPC (Data Processing Center, we Aggies are very literal about a lot of things). The day it arrived and was set up in the machine room, replacing the old IBM S/360-65, the center's director was none too pleased about the burnt orange skin color. He had the Amdahl CEs take the covers off, and out to the parking lot, where they were repainted Maroon with spray cans of Rust-Oleum from the local hardware store.

Gig 'em.
DJ '75
Post by Steve Smith
Now I have to correct you there! I was a student at A&M in the mid-70s,
and also worked as a student operator at the DPC . I assure you A&M's
school colors are MAROON & white (burnt orange belongs to that silly little
school in Austin), and Amdahl did trim our new 470/V6 in MAROON.
Few people saw it though, as it was kept in a room by itself, kept at about
60 degrees. The powers that be were paranoid about it overheating (Amdahls
were air-cooled, as long as they had power for the fans; otherwise they
melted).
sas
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by R.S.
Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit,
and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK
might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full
capacity
Post by R.S.
, but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
​I remember back in the 1980s that Texas A&M University got some S/370 that
had "burnt orange" ​panels. That's the school color.
Post by R.S.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Steve Smith
2018-03-31 16:15:02 UTC
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Howdy, Dave!

The 470's arrival was slightly before my time (I worked there '77 &
'78), so I didn't know (or remember) the actual story of how it got its
proper coloring. Amdahls were supposedly red, but it was definitely
enough of an orangish hue to cause offense :-).  The only burnt orange
tolerated in College Station was the Thanksgiving Eve Bonfire.

I wonder if it's coincidence that tu (sorry, THE UoT) also got an 470.

Gig 'em Aggies!

sas '79
Post by Dave Jones
Howdy, Steve.
I, too, as a student at TAMU in the early to mid 70s and what I remember was that it was an Amdahl 470/V6 that was delivered to the DPC (Data Processing Center, we Aggies are very literal about a lot of things). The day it arrived and was set up in the machine room, replacing the old IBM S/360-65, the center's director was none too pleased about the burnt orange skin color. He had the Amdahl CEs take the covers off, and out to the parking lot, where they were repainted Maroon with spray cans of Rust-Oleum from the local hardware store.
Gig 'em.
DJ '75
Post by Steve Smith
Now I have to correct you there! I was a student at A&M in the mid-70s,
and also worked as a student operator at the DPC . I assure you A&M's
school colors are MAROON & white (burnt orange belongs to that silly little
school in Austin), and Amdahl did trim our new 470/V6 in MAROON.
Few people saw it though, as it was kept in a room by itself, kept at about
60 degrees. The powers that be were paranoid about it overheating (Amdahls
were air-cooled, as long as they had power for the fans; otherwise they
melted).
sas
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Post by R.S.
Post by Phil Smith
Not suggesting that. But if, say, EvilCorp said "We need tapes, damnit,
and will migrate our 58,000MSUs off of Z unless you continue them", POK
might blink. Or not.
This is subject of discussion like "I would buy ten z14's at full
capacity
Post by R.S.
, but I demand the chassis has to be yellow". Would IBM agree for yellow?
I bet yes, but we also know there won't be such demand. Only serious
companies do buy a lot of MIPS and their requirements are also serious.
​I remember back in the 1980s that Texas A&M University got some S/370 that
had "burnt orange" ​panels. That's the school color.
Post by R.S.
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland
--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Timothy Sipples
2018-04-01 06:22:02 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
Would it even fit on a mod54?
A Mod54 is about 54GB uncompressed, whereas a DVD disk can hold up to 9.4GB
(dual layer DVD-RAM at least). I don't recall if the HMC supports dual
layer DVD disks, but if not (worst case) then the maximum per disk would be
4.7GB uncompressed. Unless the particular Mod54 can be compressed quite a
lot, it won't fit on a single DVD.

A Mod9 would always fit on a dual layer disk and, at about 2:1 compression,
on a single layer disk.
Post by Edward Gould
I am still puzzled on how you get this from the PC to the mainframe.
This particular path (HMC DVD with FTP) has no intermediate PC or other
system of any kind in the loop, for those who don't want that. This path
I'm describing is straight from DVD media to z/OS storage.
Post by Edward Gould
Our computer room is very secure. I am not even allowed to touch
the HMC without a VP looking over my shoulder....
Sure, pick your security (or "security" theatrical) poison. It's up to you
and your organization. The request was for a way to receive z/OS products
from IBM on physical media and to load them into z/OS, without an
intermediate system such as a PC and without a network connection. It sure
seems like that distribution path is already available, today. IBM can ship
you DVDs, and you can load them via the HMC, to my knowledge. (Throughput?
I don't know. Try it and let us know!)

....Or, I should say, via *any* HMC. You aren't limited to one HMC. For
example, you can order two HMCs, put one inside your machine room, and put
the other outside the machine room. Configure the latter with more limited
authorized capabilities, and load your DVDs into that HMC. Mount the second
HMC in a locked cabinet with dual keys if you wish -- whatever. Your
"Mainframe Media Insertion Station" is then physically easier to access,
without entering the machine room. All possible, as you prefer.

I prefer/recommend electronic delivery with digitally signed software, but
you've got choices.

What am I still missing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: ***@sg.ibm.com

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Edward Gould
2018-04-02 06:02:45 UTC
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Post by Timothy Sipples
Post by Edward Gould
Would it even fit on a mod54?
A Mod54 is about 54GB uncompressed, whereas a DVD disk can hold up to 9.4GB
(dual layer DVD-RAM at least). I don't recall if the HMC supports dual
layer DVD disks, but if not (worst case) then the maximum per disk would be
4.7GB uncompressed. Unless the particular Mod54 can be compressed quite a
lot, it won't fit on a single DVD.
A Mod9 would always fit on a dual layer disk and, at about 2:1 compression,
on a single layer disk.
Post by Edward Gould
I am still puzzled on how you get this from the PC to the mainframe.
This particular path (HMC DVD with FTP) has no intermediate PC or other
system of any kind in the loop, for those who don't want that. This path
I'm describing is straight from DVD media to z/OS storage.
Post by Edward Gould
Our computer room is very secure. I am not even allowed to touch
the HMC without a VP looking over my shoulder....
Sure, pick your security (or "security" theatrical) poison. It's up to you
and your organization. The request was for a way to receive z/OS products
from IBM on physical media and to load them into z/OS, without an
intermediate system such as a PC and without a network connection. It sure
seems like that distribution path is already available, today. IBM can ship
you DVDs, and you can load them via the HMC, to my knowledge. (Throughput?
I don't know. Try it and let us know!)
....Or, I should say, via *any* HMC. You aren't limited to one HMC. For
example, you can order two HMCs, put one inside your machine room, and put
the other outside the machine room. Configure the latter with more limited
authorized capabilities, and load your DVDs into that HMC. Mount the second
HMC in a locked cabinet with dual keys if you wish -- whatever. Your
"Mainframe Media Insertion Station" is then physically easier to access,
without entering the machine room. All possible, as you prefer.
I prefer/recommend electronic delivery with digitally signed software, but
you've got choices.
What am I still missing?
Timothy,
Thanks for the brief explanation, I am guessing that you run an smpe job on the mainframe and somehow it asks the HMC if there is anything for him. Smpe creates all the libraries like the csi and the dlibs and the system libraries automagically and the spool and paging, catalog(s). I did not realize that smpe was that powerful, I will have to reread the book tonight as I skimmed it and didn’t see the magic it does. From your explanation it also does a receive and apply of all the necessary libraries. The is one smart SMPE, next time I run into Kurt Q. I will have to congratulate him !

Ed
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Seymour J Metz
2018-04-02 17:41:54 UTC
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AFAIK you still need to allocate the datasets for SMPE. What I understood Tim to be saying is that SMP can do a RECEIVE
from a DVD, and thathe input stream can be a lot bigger than s single DVD. That might not be a problem if you are only installing service, but if you are installing new products it might involve a lot more than one DVD. I tend to agree with Tim that it's more convenient to let SMP get everything electronically, unless your network is overloaded or management won't allow it..
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of Edward Gould <***@COMCAST.NET>
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 2:03 AM
To: IBM-***@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued
Post by Timothy Sipples
Post by Edward Gould
Would it even fit on a mod54?
A Mod54 is about 54GB uncompressed, whereas a DVD disk can hold up to 9.4GB
(dual layer DVD-RAM at least). I don't recall if the HMC supports dual
layer DVD disks, but if not (worst case) then the maximum per disk would be
4.7GB uncompressed. Unless the particular Mod54 can be compressed quite a
lot, it won't fit on a single DVD.
A Mod9 would always fit on a dual layer disk and, at about 2:1 compression,
on a single layer disk.
Post by Edward Gould
I am still puzzled on how you get this from the PC to the mainframe.
This particular path (HMC DVD with FTP) has no intermediate PC or other
system of any kind in the loop, for those who don't want that. This path
I'm describing is straight from DVD media to z/OS storage.
Post by Edward Gould
Our computer room is very secure. I am not even allowed to touch
the HMC without a VP looking over my shoulder....
Sure, pick your security (or "security" theatrical) poison. It's up to you
and your organization. The request was for a way to receive z/OS products
from IBM on physical media and to load them into z/OS, without an
intermediate system such as a PC and without a network connection. It sure
seems like that distribution path is already available, today. IBM can ship
you DVDs, and you can load them via the HMC, to my knowledge. (Throughput?
I don't know. Try it and let us know!)
....Or, I should say, via *any* HMC. You aren't limited to one HMC. For
example, you can order two HMCs, put one inside your machine room, and put
the other outside the machine room. Configure the latter with more limited
authorized capabilities, and load your DVDs into that HMC. Mount the second
HMC in a locked cabinet with dual keys if you wish -- whatever. Your
"Mainframe Media Insertion Station" is then physically easier to access,
without entering the machine room. All possible, as you prefer.
I prefer/recommend electronic delivery with digitally signed software, but
you've got choices.
What am I still missing?
Timothy,
Thanks for the brief explanation, I am guessing that you run an smpe job on the mainframe and somehow it asks the HMC if there is anything for him. Smpe creates all the libraries like the csi and the dlibs and the system libraries automagically and the spool and paging, catalog(s). I did not realize that smpe was that powerful, I will have to reread the book tonight as I skimmed it and didn’t see the magic it does. From your explanation it also does a receive and apply of all the necessary libraries. The is one smart SMPE, next time I run into Kurt Q. I will have to congratulate him !

Ed
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Tom Marchant
2018-04-02 11:47:50 UTC
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Post by Steve Smith
Believe what you like, but not everyone has eidetic memory over a 40-year
span. Besides, Amdahl's placement of the slash was illogical, and was
often misplaced even then.
Shmuel is correct. Dr. Amdahl was not a believer in virtual memory, and when
he started Amdahl Corporation in 1970, it wasn't required for any of the major
operating systems from IBM. So the original 470 design did not include virtual
memory, and the the model number of the first machine was to be 470/6.
"470" signified that it was the fourth generation machine for the 1970's.

With the addition of virtual memory to the 370 series and the introduction of
OS/VS1, OS/VS2, and DOS/VS, the 470 design was enhanced to include virtual
memory on all models, and the 470 series became the 470V series. The "V"
went with "470" not with the model number. The placement of the slash was
perfectly logical if you understood the reason for it. The models in the 470V
series were the 470V/5, 470V/6, 470V/7, and 470V/8.
--
Tom Marchant
Post by Steve Smith
Post by Seymour J Metz
I might believe 470V/6.
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Alan Altmark
2018-04-02 13:13:58 UTC
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The HMC DVD in not directly accessible to any operating system as a device with VM or Linux, and the interface
to it is not a published one.
z/VM FTP server has long been able to access the removable media on the HMC. Or an authorized z/VM guest can do it themselves via DIAGNOSE X'2C4' (see CP Programming Services book).

But to what end, ultimately? Across the industry, the ubiquitous DVD drive is disappearing. The manufacturers are winding down production. Those devices that need optical media have moved to Blu-Ray. Yet many laptops have neither. Weight. Power. Cost.

The most secure delivery of service to z/OS is directly via SMP/E. Corrupted data or MITM interference is automatically detected by the TLS connection. You know the data is coming from IBM and you know it hasn't been tampered with.

This story is not finished. Technology will continue to change, risk profiles will continue to change (are the Illuminati or State actors producing 3590 tapes and substituting them?), and so the delivery mechanisms will continue to evolve, just as they have done since the story began.

Alan Altmark
IBM Systems Lab Services

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Paul Gilmartin
2018-04-02 14:08:39 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
Post by Timothy Sipples
...
This particular path (HMC DVD with FTP) has no intermediate PC or other
system of any kind in the loop, for those who don't want that. This path
I'm describing is straight from DVD media to z/OS storage.
...
I prefer/recommend electronic delivery with digitally signed software, but
you've got choices.
...
Thanks for the brief explanation, I am guessing that you run an smpe job on the mainframe and somehow it asks the HMC if there is anything for him. Smpe creates all the libraries like the csi and the dlibs and the system libraries automagically and the spool and paging, catalog(s). I did not realize that smpe was that powerful, I will have to reread the book tonight as I skimmed it and didn’t see the magic it does. From your explanation it also does a receive and apply of all the necessary libraries. The is one smart SMPE, next time I run into Kurt Q. I will have to congratulate him !
(Was there any sarcasm there?)

Can the HMC be configured, then, as an FTP server usable for RECEIVE FROMNETWORK
given suitable SMPSRVR definition, and is the DVD in GIMZIPped format? If all these
are true, then SMP/E can do it all in one RECEIVE step, as Ed hopes. Has IBM done
PoC?

GIMZIP format is protected by SHA-1 checksums. These might be delivered via an
independent secure channel (voice phone call?)

-- gil

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John Eells
2018-04-02 19:48:56 UTC
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Paul Gilmartin wrote:
<snip>
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Can the HMC be configured, then, as an FTP server usable for RECEIVE FROMNETWORK
given suitable SMPSRVR definition, and is the DVD in GIMZIPped format? If all these
are true, then SMP/E can do it all in one RECEIVE step, as Ed hopes. Has IBM done
PoC?
GIMZIP format is protected by SHA-1 checksums. These might be delivered via an
independent secure channel (voice phone call?)
So, not necessarily in the order these things have come up:

- SHA-1 checksums used by GIMZIP/GIMUNZIP/GIMGTPKG were not intended to
be regarded as secure signatures. IBM packages cannot really be
described as "signed." Also, NIST has deprecated SHA-1 for such a
purpose for some time. Whether the SHA-1 hash value used to verify a
package's integrity is just the one that comes with it or whether it's
verfied by telephone, Registered Mail, or carrier pigeon truly matters
not from a security point of view. SSL is more reliable for that
purpose, as someone else suggested in this thread. The combination of
SHA-1 for integrity and SSL for connection verification seems reasonably
secure to yours truly, but I am not security guy so take my opinion for
what it's worth.

- We have not tested using the HMC functions for accessing the DVD drive
for processing PTF orders, ServerPac orders, or CBPDO orders as far as I
know (and, I would probably know). If sufficient interest develops, we
might be convinced to, but we have no current plans. That said, I don't
yet know of any reason it would not work.

- SMP/E will allocate the same data sets it always did, and not allocate
the data sets it never did, whether you use tape, DVD, or Internet to
get an installable set of SYSMODs. So if you RECEIVE one or more
products from a CBPDO order, for example, it will create the SMPTLIB
data sets from the RELFILEs. But allocating the target and distribution
library data sets will be up to you, as has been the case since the
Beginning of Time.

- ServerPac is insensitive to how things get to the z/OS UNIX file
system. Its existing installation process will allocate all the data
sets needed for the products in the order just as it has since its
availability in 1996.

- ServerPac and RECEIVE FROMNET both expect GIMZIP format packages.
--
John Eells
IBM Poughkeepsie
***@us.ibm.com

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Charles Mills
2018-04-02 20:13:23 UTC
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SHA-1 will guard against inadvertent errors: comm errors, truncated files, that sort of thing. As John says, it cannot be considered secure against willful and skilled tampering.

Charles


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Eells
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:50 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Software Delivery on Tape to be Discontinued

Paul Gilmartin wrote:
<snip>
Post by Paul Gilmartin
Can the HMC be configured, then, as an FTP server usable for RECEIVE
FROMNETWORK given suitable SMPSRVR definition, and is the DVD in
GIMZIPped format? If all these are true, then SMP/E can do it all in
one RECEIVE step, as Ed hopes. Has IBM done PoC?
GIMZIP format is protected by SHA-1 checksums. These might be
delivered via an independent secure channel (voice phone call?)
So, not necessarily in the order these things have come up:

- SHA-1 checksums used by GIMZIP/GIMUNZIP/GIMGTPKG were not intended to be regarded as secure signatures. IBM packages cannot really be described as "signed." Also, NIST has deprecated SHA-1 for such a purpose for some time. Whether the SHA-1 hash value used to verify a package's integrity is just the one that comes with it or whether it's verfied by telephone, Registered Mail, or carrier pigeon truly matters not from a security point of view. SSL is more reliable for that purpose, as someone else suggested in this thread. The combination of
SHA-1 for integrity and SSL for connection verification seems reasonably secure to yours truly, but I am not security guy so take my opinion for what it's worth.

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