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SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
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Munif Sadek
2017-11-23 07:56:56 UTC
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Hi listers

We are planning to take-up an POC for converting SAS (including SAS - DB2 ) programs to Java in order to save on SAS licencing cost and mainframe GCP MSU$. Can someone Please provide any pointers in the right direction or share his or her experience, Please.


regards Munif

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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-11-23 08:00:51 UTC
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Just curious: why JAVA and not WPS? WPS is code-compatible with SAS.

Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Munif Sadek
Sent: 23 November, 2017 8:58
Subject: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Hi listers
We are planning to take-up an POC for converting SAS (including SAS -
DB2 ) programs to Java in order to save on SAS licencing cost and
mainframe GCP MSU$. Can someone Please provide any pointers in the
right direction or share his or her experience, Please.
regards Munif
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Munif Sadek
2017-11-23 08:56:08 UTC
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WPS will again have licensing cost and run on GCP which is MSU bound and hence $, whereas Java should be 100% zIIP eligible unless its Java-jdbc which is is partially offloadable to zIIP..

Regards
Munif

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Martin Packer
2017-11-23 09:13:50 UTC
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When you say "planning to" I hope you really mean "beginning to consider".
There are just so many ways this could turn out to be a bad idea.

But there is at least one company I know of that makes SMF-through-java
software.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

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From: Munif Sadek <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: 23/11/2017 08:57
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



WPS will again have licensing cost and run on GCP which is MSU bound and
hence $, whereas Java should be 100% zIIP eligible unless its Java-jdbc
which is is partially offloadable to zIIP..

Regards
Munif

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Andrew Rowley
2017-11-23 10:18:03 UTC
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Post by Munif Sadek
We are planning to take-up an POC for converting SAS (including SAS - DB2 ) programs to Java in order to save on SAS licencing cost and mainframe GCP MSU$. Can someone Please provide any pointers in the right direction or share his or her experience, Please.
We have Java mappings for many SMF records.
https://www.blackhillsoftware.com/docs/javasmf/

I would be happy to work with you to arrange a trial and create some SMF
reports using Java as a POC. Feel free to contact me off list.

Regards

Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Amrith
2017-11-23 10:26:46 UTC
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Munif
Under the covers a lot of native code gets called which I don't think is offloaded to Ziip. Yes It's absolutely interesting using Java on Z. Take care of the UTF to EBCDIC translations.
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/23/17, Munif Sadek <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:57 AM

WPS will again have licensing cost and run on
GCP which is MSU bound and hence $, whereas Java should be
100% zIIP eligible unless its Java-jdbc which is is
partially offloadable to zIIP..

Regards
Munif

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Martin Packer
2017-11-23 10:38:08 UTC
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Last I heard WPS was C++ rather than (their initial) Java.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

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From: Amrith <000000ae6d97fc6e-dmarc-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: 23/11/2017 10:28
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



Munif
Under the covers a lot of native code gets called which I don't
think is offloaded to Ziip. Yes It's absolutely interesting using Java on
Z. Take care of the UTF to EBCDIC translations.
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/23/17, Munif Sadek <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: Thursday, November 23, 2017, 8:57 AM

WPS will again have licensing cost and run on
GCP which is MSU bound and hence $, whereas Java should be
100% zIIP eligible unless its Java-jdbc which is is
partially offloadable to zIIP..

Regards
Munif

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Munif Sadek
2017-11-23 11:29:29 UTC
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Martin/Andrew

SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls

We have tonnes of reporting even business application logic in SAAS which over the time has become part of production. SMF should be manageable as it's mostly system/ security related reporting and we can mend our ways..

Thank you all for your replies.

Kind regards
Munif

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David Crayford
2017-11-23 12:22:50 UTC
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I fear you may be in for a heavy lift! Converting SAS to Java is non
trivial and if you have production jobs in the mix it's a risky
business. How many programs do you need to convert?
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
We have tonnes of reporting even business application logic in SAAS which over the time has become part of production. SMF should be manageable as it's mostly system/ security related reporting and we can mend our ways..
Thank you all for your replies.
Kind regards
Munif
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SWSWSWSW
2017-11-23 15:00:51 UTC
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Hi,

I had similar SAS decommission situation sometime back. But, I primarily manages the storage software. So I managed to convert them using REXX for the following SMF record types - 17, 61, 65, 66 and 241. DCOLLECT records too. It does both reporting and few operations work. We used REXX and SORT PGMs(SYNCSORT) widely.

We also printed all the existing PDBs and its datasets into the flat file for archive(Using PROC PRINT and PROC CONTENTS). Thought, if management wants any historical report, then we can use small REXX code and covert them into a report format.

It is also possible to load the flat file into DB2 table using REXX and DB2 APIs. You can give a try.

Anthony
Andrew Rowley
2017-11-23 22:38:47 UTC
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Post by Munif Sadek
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I suspect the best tool for converting SAS databases to other formats
might be SAS itself. I assume it has interfaces to other types of database.

My initial thought on converting the code was that SAS code would be too
different to Java, and you would have to work out the specs and rewrite.
However, I googled "convert sas to java" and there seem to be a number
of services and/or products claiming to do it.

I do think the generated code might be less than optimal, and you would
miss out on a lot of the benefits of Java. Rewriting at least the most
resource intensive programs might be worth doing.
--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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David Crayford
2017-11-24 02:34:15 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rowley
Post by Munif Sadek
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I suspect the best tool for converting SAS databases to other formats
might be SAS itself. I assume it has interfaces to other types of database.
My initial thought on converting the code was that SAS code would be
too different to Java, and you would have to work out the specs and
rewrite. However, I googled "convert sas to java" and there seem to be
a number of services and/or products claiming to do it.
I do think the generated code might be less than optimal, and you
would miss out on a lot of the benefits of Java.
Rewriting at least the most resource intensive programs might be worth
doing.
Great advice.  The pareto principle.

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Thomas Kern
2017-11-25 01:30:35 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rowley
Post by Munif Sadek
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I suspect the best tool for converting SAS databases to other formats
might be SAS itself. I assume it has interfaces to other types of database.
My initial thought on converting the code was that SAS code would be
too different to Java, and you would have to work out the specs and
rewrite. However, I googled "convert sas to java" and there seem to be
a number of services and/or products claiming to do it.
I do think the generated code might be less than optimal, and you
would miss out on a lot of the benefits of Java. Rewriting at least
the most resource intensive programs might be worth doing.
I think a better way would be to refine your developer team's Java
skills by writing the SAS->Java conversion tools in Java. For the SAS
specific processes like PROC MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT, GCHART could be
written as calls to appropriate functions in "R".

/Tom Kern

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Barry Merrill
2017-11-23 15:49:00 UTC
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We have many MXG users who have moved their SAS Processing to Linux or Windows,
where only a Workstation license may be needed, and there is no download of the
SMF data file; the SAS ftp access method reads the z/OS data and only the output
SAS datasets need disk space on the ASCII platform.

And that eliminates the risk and cost of reprogramming.

I'd also be VERY concerned about the execution time if your applications are
high volume under Java versus under SAS.

And if the reason for DB2 is for your DB2 DBAs that only speak SQL, they
can use the free PROC SQL and issue SQL calls and reports to their heart's
content.

And you have the full power of SAS ODS to create output in HTML, EXCEL, etc.

With the already working and tested SAS language program unchanged.


Merrilly THANKSGIVING TO ALL,

Barry Merrill


Merrilly yours,

Herbert W. Barry Merrill, PhD
President-Programmer
Merrill Consultants
MXG Software
10717 Cromwell Drive technical questions: ***@mxg.com
Dallas, TX 75229
http://www.mxg.com admin questions: ***@mxg.com
tel: 214 351 1966
fax: 214 350 3694



-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Munif Sadek
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 1:58 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java

Hi listers

We are planning to take-up an POC for converting SAS (including SAS - DB2 ) programs to Java in order to save on SAS licencing cost and mainframe GCP MSU$. Can someone Please provide any pointers in the right direction or share his or her experience, Please.


regards Munif

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Andrew Rowley
2017-11-28 12:11:57 UTC
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Post by Barry Merrill
I'd also be VERY concerned about the execution time if your applications are
high volume under Java versus under SAS.
I only know SAS by reputation, but my expectation would be the opposite
- I would expect Java to be faster than SAS. I suspect (but haven't been
able to measure definitively) that it costs more CPU in TCPIP to FTP the
data than to run Java reports on the mainframe - and the Java CPU time
is on zIIP.

What sort of SMF volumes and processing speeds are typical? I'm
currently playing with transaction reporting from CICS monitoring data.
On my PC, summarizing data by region and transaction name takes about 45
seconds for around 12 million transactions from compressed CICS data. On
the IBM remote development system, about 25 CPU seconds (almost all
zIIP) for 2.5 million transactions (I am limited by DASD space so am
working on smaller files).

I feel like this is fast but would welcome feedback based on real world
data.
--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Anthony Thompson
2017-11-28 23:07:36 UTC
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What about Spark on Z? IBM are giving it away.

Ant.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Rowley
Sent: Tuesday, 28 November 2017 9:43 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Post by Barry Merrill
I'd also be VERY concerned about the execution time if your
applications are high volume under Java versus under SAS.
I only know SAS by reputation, but my expectation would be the opposite
- I would expect Java to be faster than SAS. I suspect (but haven't been able to measure definitively) that it costs more CPU in TCPIP to FTP the data than to run Java reports on the mainframe - and the Java CPU time is on zIIP.

What sort of SMF volumes and processing speeds are typical? I'm currently playing with transaction reporting from CICS monitoring data.
On my PC, summarizing data by region and transaction name takes about 45 seconds for around 12 million transactions from compressed CICS data. On the IBM remote development system, about 25 CPU seconds (almost all
zIIP) for 2.5 million transactions (I am limited by DASD space so am working on smaller files).

I feel like this is fast but would welcome feedback based on real world data.

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Andrew Rowley
2017-11-28 23:59:20 UTC
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Post by Anthony Thompson
What about Spark on Z? IBM are giving it away.
I haven't tried it, but from the documentation and presentations it
seems pretty heavyweight for simple SMF reporting.

I see a couple of other issues:
- IBM were saying how great it was at parallelizing work, however that
is a bit of a red flag for me. Parallelizing is great if you have e.g. a
multi core workstation where you hit 100% usage on one core while the
others are idle. That isn't usually the case on z/OS. Most z/OS
customers would prefer speeding up by reducing total CPU usage than
spreading it across multiple CPUs. It would be fairly uncommon on z/OS
for this type of job to run at a priority where single CPU capacity is
the limiting factor.
- I think the reporting is SQL based? SMF data was not designed to be
queried using SQL. I have been down that path. On the other hand, Java
classes are beautiful for working with SMF data (not quite as nice as C#
but still very good).
--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Anthony Thompson
2017-11-29 00:57:57 UTC
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http://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/watsonwalker/ww/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/28073651/Spark-and-SMF.pdf

Timothy Sipples may have more to add.

Cheers, Ant.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrew Rowley
Sent: Wednesday, 29 November 2017 9:30 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Post by Anthony Thompson
What about Spark on Z? IBM are giving it away.
I haven't tried it, but from the documentation and presentations it seems pretty heavyweight for simple SMF reporting.

I see a couple of other issues:
- IBM were saying how great it was at parallelizing work, however that is a bit of a red flag for me. Parallelizing is great if you have e.g. a multi core workstation where you hit 100% usage on one core while the others are idle. That isn't usually the case on z/OS. Most z/OS customers would prefer speeding up by reducing total CPU usage than spreading it across multiple CPUs. It would be fairly uncommon on z/OS for this type of job to run at a priority where single CPU capacity is the limiting factor.
- I think the reporting is SQL based? SMF data was not designed to be queried using SQL. I have been down that path. On the other hand, Java classes are beautiful for working with SMF data (not quite as nice as C# but still very good).

--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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David Crayford
2017-11-29 02:14:17 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rowley
- I think the reporting is SQL based? SMF data was not designed to be
queried using SQL. I have been down that path. On the other hand, Java
classes are beautiful for working with SMF data (not quite as nice as
C# but still very good).
If you like C# you should take a look at Kotlin, which is even better
and runs on the JVM. It's quickly becoming the language of choice for
Android developers which is no surprise giving it's similarities to
Swift
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/android-announces-support-for-kotlin.html.

Java doesn't feel like a new language. It lacks features introduced in
other languages over a decade ago. Java 10 introduces type inference but
it's too little too late. Check out Kotlins Nullable feature. No more
NullPointerExceptions, yay! data classes, properties, a really powerful
lambda syntax and seamless Java interop make it a joy to program in. The
learning curve for Java programmers is small. It took me a couple of
days which is significantly less then the far more complex Scala which I
have yet to completely master.

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Frank Swarbrick
2017-11-30 01:10:25 UTC
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I've never heard of Kotlin, but it seems to me that Android would be better off supporting Swift before it goes another direction. Or does it already support Swift?
________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David Crayford <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 7:15 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Post by Andrew Rowley
- I think the reporting is SQL based? SMF data was not designed to be
queried using SQL. I have been down that path. On the other hand, Java
classes are beautiful for working with SMF data (not quite as nice as
C# but still very good).
If you like C# you should take a look at Kotlin, which is even better
and runs on the JVM. It's quickly becoming the language of choice for
Android developers which is no surprise giving it's similarities to
Swift
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/android-announces-support-for-kotlin.html.

Java doesn't feel like a new language. It lacks features introduced in
other languages over a decade ago. Java 10 introduces type inference but
it's too little too late. Check out Kotlins Nullable feature. No more
NullPointerExceptions, yay! data classes, properties, a really powerful
lambda syntax and seamless Java interop make it a joy to program in. The
learning curve for Java programmers is small. It took me a couple of
days which is significantly less then the far more complex Scala which I
have yet to completely master.

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David Crayford
2017-11-30 02:04:49 UTC
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Post by Frank Swarbrick
I've never heard of Kotlin, but it seems to me that Android would be better off supporting Swift before it goes another direction. Or does it already support Swift?
The three supported programming languages on Android are Java, Kotlin
and C/C++ for native code. Android runs Googles Dalvik JVM so it
requires a JVM language. For z/OS I would choose Kotlin over Swift any
day of the week. It's a no brainer really, it can access the gargantuan
Java eco-system and it runs on a zIIP. The languages are very similar
http://nilhcem.com/swift-is-like-kotlin/.
Post by Frank Swarbrick
________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Post by Andrew Rowley
- I think the reporting is SQL based? SMF data was not designed to be
queried using SQL. I have been down that path. On the other hand, Java
classes are beautiful for working with SMF data (not quite as nice as
C# but still very good).
If you like C# you should take a look at Kotlin, which is even better
and runs on the JVM. It's quickly becoming the language of choice for
Android developers which is no surprise giving it's similarities to
Swift
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/android-announces-support-for-kotlin.html.
Java doesn't feel like a new language. It lacks features introduced in
other languages over a decade ago. Java 10 introduces type inference but
it's too little too late. Check out Kotlins Nullable feature. No more
NullPointerExceptions, yay! data classes, properties, a really powerful
lambda syntax and seamless Java interop make it a joy to program in. The
learning curve for Java programmers is small. It took me a couple of
days which is significantly less then the far more complex Scala which I
have yet to completely master.
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Jantje.
2017-11-24 11:48:48 UTC
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Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after 5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...

Sorry if I sound negative,

Jantje.

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David Crayford
2017-11-24 12:12:10 UTC
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Post by Jantje.
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after 5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Post by Jantje.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
2017-11-24 12:26:09 UTC
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I read it, that the OP wants to eliminate SAS license cost, by eliminating SAS at all.
I agree with Jantje: how do you rewrite PROCs MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT, GCHART etc. with all their parameters to Java reliantly and still make the project cost effective. A WPS project has a much greater chance.

Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: 24 November, 2017 13:13
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:30:45 -0600, Munif Sadek
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
Post by Munif Sadek
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
Post by Munif Sadek
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after
5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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David Crayford
2017-11-24 12:32:48 UTC
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Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
I read it, that the OP wants to eliminate SAS license cost, by eliminating SAS at all.
I agree with Jantje: how do you rewrite PROCs MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT, GCHART etc. with all their parameters to Java reliantly and still make the project cost effective. A WPS project has a much greater chance.
If the WPS license fee is significantly less then I agree. SAS burns CPU
cycles and cherry picking the worst offenders and rewriting in Java
could in the interim lower the MSU charges which saves money. Like I
said, do an incremental, phased project not a big bang.
Post by Vernooij, Kees - KLM , ITOPT1
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: 24 November, 2017 13:13
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:30:45 -0600, Munif Sadek
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
Post by Munif Sadek
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
Post by Munif Sadek
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after
5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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Martin Packer
2017-11-24 12:38:52 UTC
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One other thing I'd throw in is this: Do not assume that rewriting to java
will save GCP CPU when you go to DB2.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: ***@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog:
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/MartinPacker

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https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2


Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA



From: "Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM" <***@KLM.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: 24/11/2017 12:27
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



I read it, that the OP wants to eliminate SAS license cost, by eliminating
SAS at all.

I agree with Jantje: how do you rewrite PROCs MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT,
GCHART etc. with all their parameters to Java reliantly and still make the
project cost effective. A WPS project has a much greater chance.



Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: 24 November, 2017 13:13
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:30:45 -0600, Munif Sadek
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
Post by Munif Sadek
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
Post by Munif Sadek
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after
5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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David Crayford
2017-11-24 12:44:24 UTC
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How so? Does DB2 only offload to zIIP for remote DRDA?
Post by Martin Packer
One other thing I'd throw in is this: Do not assume that rewriting to java
will save GCP CPU when you go to DB2.
Cheers, Martin
Martin Packer
zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM
+44-7802-245-584
Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/MartinPacker
Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/ or
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/mainframe-performance-topics/id1127943573?mt=2
Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_65HaYgksbF6Q8SQ4oOvA
Date: 24/11/2017 12:27
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
I read it, that the OP wants to eliminate SAS license cost, by eliminating
SAS at all.
I agree with Jantje: how do you rewrite PROCs MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT,
GCHART etc. with all their parameters to Java reliantly and still make the
project cost effective. A WPS project has a much greater chance.
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: 24 November, 2017 13:13
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:30:45 -0600, Munif Sadek
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
Post by Munif Sadek
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
Post by Munif Sadek
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after
5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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Martin Packer
2017-11-24 13:23:18 UTC
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The point is the GCP pathlength is longer with DRDA than local attach. The
zIIP eligibility helps with that and might or might not cover this
increase. YMMV.

Cheers, Martin

Martin Packer

zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM

+44-7802-245-584

email: ***@uk.ibm.com

Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker

Blog:
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From: David Crayford <***@GMAIL.COM>
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Date: 24/11/2017 12:45
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>



How so? Does DB2 only offload to zIIP for remote DRDA?
Post by Martin Packer
One other thing I'd throw in is this: Do not assume that rewriting to java
will save GCP CPU when you go to DB2.
Cheers, Martin
Martin Packer
zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM
+44-7802-245-584
Twitter / Facebook IDs: MartinPacker
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/MartinPacker
Podcast Series (With Marna Walle): https://developer.ibm.com/tv/mpt/ or
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__itunes.apple.com_gb_podcast_mainframe-2Dperformance-2Dtopics_id1127943573-3Fmt-3D2&d=DwICaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=BsPGKdq7-Vl8MW2-WOWZjlZ0NwmcFSpQCLphNznBSDQ&m=kTCU9OmUgdcaOs1-R4b3E-yEci2LxYSjiEb6cjUc11k&s=U6h5XFf1sl29QFvfMFNHhIQEADL856qdwzoL1XGp17U&e=
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Post by Martin Packer
Date: 24/11/2017 12:27
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
I read it, that the OP wants to eliminate SAS license cost, by
eliminating
Post by Martin Packer
SAS at all.
I agree with Jantje: how do you rewrite PROCs MEANS, UNIVARIATE, GPLOT,
GCHART etc. with all their parameters to Java reliantly and still make the
project cost effective. A WPS project has a much greater chance.
Kees.
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of David Crayford
Sent: 24 November, 2017 13:13
Subject: Re: SAS - DB2 conversion to Java
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:30:45 -0600, Munif Sadek
Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially
inclined for any automated tool that can
Post by Munif Sadek
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool
must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
Post by Munif Sadek
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
I can see another of these 2-year/USD2mio projects coming, that, after
5 years and USD 12mio gets washed down the drain...
Indeed! But Andrew Rowley made the suggestion of picking the low hanging
fruit, the most CPU intensive SAS programs. A incremental project that
reduced MSU usage by rewriting high cost SAS programs in Java would save
money and reduce risk. That's a very good idea. Only recently somebody
suggested the same but for COBOL programs. If you have zIIP processors
and they're not maxed out your wasting your money.
Sorry if I sound negative,
Jantje.
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Post by Martin Packer
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Scott Chapman
2017-11-24 12:09:02 UTC
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Indeed, I don't think that's what the OP is (mostly) looking for, but Pivotor is written in Java and can store the extracted SMF data to DB2. The combination of which was part of my original attraction to the product.

But it appears the OP wants a more general purpose SAS code replacement option.

Scott Chapman
https://www.pivotor.com
Post by Martin Packer
When you say "planning to" I hope you really mean "beginning to consider".
There are just so many ways this could turn out to be a bad idea.
But there is at least one company I know of that makes SMF-through-java
software.
Cheers, Martin
Martin Packer
zChampion, Systems Investigator & Performance Troubleshooter, IBM
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Scott Barry
2017-11-24 19:25:09 UTC
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Post by Munif Sadek
Martin/Andrew
SMF/CMF are least of our concern at the moment. We are initially inclined for any automated tool that can
A.read SAS PDBs and convert them to DB2 tables and/or flat file. Tool must cater take for packed, COMP data elements.
B. Can read SAS code and give us some basic converted Java code
C. Will be good if the tool can convert DB2I calls to JDBC calls
We have tonnes of reporting even business application logic in SAAS which over the time has become part of production. SMF should be manageable as it's mostly system/ security related reporting and we can mend our ways..
Thank you all for your replies.
Kind regards
Munif
An up-front "discovery" will need to occur (prioritizing use/value/benefit/requirement), reviewing current SAS programs / auto-call & invoked macros, SAS-supported procedures (a few already mentioned), SAS environment functionality (various SAS ODS features, some quite powerful).

The SAS solution is quite-extensive, with distinct "layers", such as database, programming-language/parser, UI, output-delivery, and beyond. Of course, the discovery-process will peel back the onion to reveal what's going under the covers -- this will help you determine just what such a (an eventual successful, or otherwise) migration cost would likely entail.....

Another suggestion that has worked with clients we support....consider taking your concern to SAS INSTITUTE sales/marketing people, armed with statistics on "current SAS use" (all platforms, LPARs, etc.) and attempt to constructively negotiate a purposeful sub-capacity licensing arrangement......have a look here within the SAS.COM support site, where it took some years but finally SAS did adopt sub-capacity licensing arrangements with their clients:

Setting Up a Sub-Capacity SAS® License in the z/OS Operating Environment
https://support.sas.com/techsup/technote/ts773.pdf

This idea/opportunity is working today, but obviously it will take time/effort/mgmt-control, both to get there and then to continue the ongoing management process, likely at a far-less cost.

Scott Barry
SBBWorks, Inc.

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Scott Chapman
2017-11-30 12:29:59 UTC
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I'll have to defend SQL in general... despite the current popularity of NoSQL databases I've used SQL for going on 3 decades now for all sorts of things, including now SMF reporting. And PROC SQL was the primary way I (at least initially) survived getting data out of MXG's PDBs. You can do a whole lot in SQL. We have over 1000 reports that we've created in our product, all of which use SQL to retrieve the SMF data that has been loaded into a relational database.

However, I do agree that the straight mapping of "here's an SMF record segment as a record in a table" does leave something to be desired and likely will make it more difficult to build the necessary reports as there will likely be more work necessary than if the data was enriched. In a few cases, as you suggest, it may be almost (but probably not) impossible. That's (in part) why our extractor is a bit more sophisticated than just segment -> record and why we have a process to further rejoin, deduplicate, deaccumulate and generally enrich the records in the database before we begin reporting on the data. I'm also not sure how sophisticated SQL the MDSS supports. For example, support for temporary tables would make certain things easier.

For small shops that only want a few reports, and have the time for playing with it, the Spark access to SMF is probably sufficient for doing that. In that situation you can potentially take some short cuts and make some assumptions that may not be valid in all installations.

But I'm not convinced that that's the right answer for most SMF reporting needs. At least not for the performance data that I'm most familiar with. Especially when there are (multiple, low-cost) other alternatives that can do that in a zIIP-offloaded or completely offloaded fashion. The use case of grabbing certain event records in near realtime from the SMF buffers might be an interesting use case, for example. Of course that also envisions running those queries repeatedly on some relatively short interval basis and I'm not sure what that implications of that might be.

Obviously I might be slightly (although I hope not much) biased at this point, but I think the points are worth consideration.

Scott Chapman
www.pivotor.com
Post by Anthony Thompson
http://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/watsonwalker/ww/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/28073651/Spark-and-SMF.pdf
I have seen various presentations. My experience has been that SQL is
very limiting when it comes to SMF reports. Most of the reports I do
would be difficult or impossible, or would require multiple data passes
to get the data using SQL.
--
Andrew Rowley
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