Discussion:
Reload nucleus module dynamically
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Peter
2017-09-13 10:44:53 UTC
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Hello

Apology for the dummy question.

Is there a way to dynamically update a nucleus ?

I have applied a PTF for a product (ISV) and it has updated nucleus.

Is it possible to reload dynamically ?

Peter

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Binyamin Dissen
2017-09-13 12:03:15 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:16:03 +0530 Peter <***@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

:>Apology for the dummy question.

Not at all dummy.

:>Is there a way to dynamically update a nucleus ?

Yes, by updating memory.

:>I have applied a PTF for a product (ISV) and it has updated nucleus.

:>Is it possible to reload dynamically ?

Ask the ISV. Best not to risk this yourself.

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-09-13 12:42:30 UTC
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Post by Peter
Is there a way to dynamically update a nucleus ?
I have applied a PTF for a product (ISV) and it has updated nucleus.
Is it possible to reload dynamically ?
You better listen to Binyamin Dissen who kinldy replied to you.

What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.

If these modules are SVC modules, I would recommend you to rather IPL.

But ask your ISV, they wrote the product and they certainly can assist you way better than IBM-MAIN.

If still unsure, put all your updated libraries on another set of volsers and IPL.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Peter Hunkeler
2017-09-13 17:10:43 UTC
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Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS supports up to date.


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Edward Gould
2017-09-13 19:51:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Hunkeler
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
Peter:
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was
“duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?

Ed
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Mark Jacobs - Listserv
2017-09-13 19:56:30 UTC
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University Computing Company (UCC), later known as UCCel. I think that
DUO was UCC-2, TMS was UCC-1.

Mark Jacobs
September 13, 2017 at 3:41 PM
Post by Peter Hunkeler
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was
“duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?
Ed
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September 13, 2017 at 1:11 PM
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is
the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different
areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list
of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about
dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS
supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
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September 13, 2017 at 8:43 AM
You better listen to Binyamin Dissen who kinldy replied to you.
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist,
you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of
course YMMV.
If these modules are SVC modules, I would recommend you to rather IPL.
But ask your ISV, they wrote the product and they certainly can assist
you way better than IBM-MAIN.
If still unsure, put all your updated libraries on another set of volsers and IPL.
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
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Edward Gould
2017-09-13 22:44:42 UTC
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University Computing Company (UCC), later known as UCCel. I think that DUO was UCC-2, TMS was UCC-1.
Mark Jacobs
Thanks for the memory jar.
Did your company go into DR mode when IRMA hit?

Ed


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Mark Jacobs - Listserv
2017-09-13 23:20:52 UTC
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As it happened to work out, we had a scheduled DR test this week, but
our mainframe is now in Poughkeepsie at an IBM data center.

Mark Jacobs
September 13, 2017 at 6:35 PM
Thanks for the memory jar.
Did your company go into DR mode when IRMA hit?
Ed
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September 13, 2017 at 3:57 PM
University Computing Company (UCC), later known as UCCel. I think that
DUO was UCC-2, TMS was UCC-1.
Mark Jacobs
September 13, 2017 at 3:41 PM
Post by Peter Hunkeler
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was
“duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?
Ed
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September 13, 2017 at 1:11 PM
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is
the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different
areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list
of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about
dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS
supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
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September 13, 2017 at 8:43 AM
You better listen to Binyamin Dissen who kinldy replied to you.
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist,
you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of
course YMMV.
If these modules are SVC modules, I would recommend you to rather IPL.
But ask your ISV, they wrote the product and they certainly can assist
you way better than IBM-MAIN.
If still unsure, put all your updated libraries on another set of volsers and IPL.
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
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Mark Jacobs
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The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Lt. Gen. David Morrison


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Blaicher, Christopher Y.
2017-09-13 20:05:55 UTC
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Updating a table, even if it is in there as a load module, that happens to be in the NUC is one thing. Replacing a module in the NUC is a whole different thing. I could see loading a replacement module into fixed CSA and changing a pointer to it, assuming the address for it is in a system vector or control block. Updating the NUC itself while it is running? Not happening.

Chris Blaicher
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Mainframe Development
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-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Edward Gould
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:42 PM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reload nucleus module dynamically
Post by Peter Hunkeler
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
What modules do you want to reload? If that is in LPA and/or Linklist, you better be careful before issuing commands to refresh them. Of course YMMV.
Well, the nucleus is the nucleus, LPA is the LPA, and the linklist is the linklist. They are different beasts. The first two are different areas in the virtual address space map, the third is noting but a list of data set to be searched for load modules. The OP asked about dynamically updating the nucleus, and this is nothing that MVS supports up to date.
--
Peter Hunkeler
Peter:
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was “duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?

Ed
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Peter Hunkeler
2017-09-14 05:12:23 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was
“duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?


Ed, not sure how your comment relates to the topic at hand. You can always write a program to modify just about any bit in storage, but that has nothing to do with native support by the operating system.
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Edward Gould
2017-09-14 06:39:02 UTC
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Post by Edward Gould
Post by Edward Gould
Long time ago and when MVS first came out, we used to do this quite often (once a week). A product we had called DUO (DOS under MVS). DUO maintained a table in the nucleus for which dos jobs were running. They had a bug in their code that would not delete entries. We had to go in and blank out the job names that were not running(so as not to have to IPL). We finally got tired of doing this and wrote a program that did it.
Worked like a charm. They asked for the program and we were not in a good mood so we said no. It took them a year to figure out how to do it.My memory is hazy here but I think the degression was
“duo” -> went to some company in Dallas? and then a year or two later CA bought them out. By then we had gotten rid of all the jobs. One of the long time contributors to IBM-Main used to work for the company if he hasn’t retired maybe he could speak up?
Ed, not sure how your comment relates to the topic at hand. You can always write a program to modify just about any bit in storage, but that has nothing to do with native support by the operating system.
Peter,

The person was asking about reloading the nuc (IIRC). I just added in a bit where it was possible at one time to alter it.

Ed

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Lizette Koehler
2017-09-13 13:24:54 UTC
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All good answers so far

1 Nucleus is loaded at NIP or very early in the IPL Process. Unless otherwise directed by the ISV, it will require an IPL to update
2 The MCS entry for your ptf (if SMP/E installed) will document how to install the fix
3 As others have stated, contact the ISV for assistance on how to install the fix in Nucleus


Lizette
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Peter
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:46 AM
Subject: Reload nucleus module dynamically
Hello
Apology for the dummy question.
Is there a way to dynamically update a nucleus ?
I have applied a PTF for a product (ISV) and it has updated nucleus.
Is it possible to reload dynamically ?
Peter
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Tom Marchant
2017-09-13 13:31:52 UTC
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Post by Peter
Is there a way to dynamically update a nucleus ?
"A Nucleus"? Do you mean the MVS Nucleus? If so, I wouldn't try it.
Post by Peter
I have applied a PTF for a product (ISV) and it has updated nucleus.
You have an ISV product that requires an update to the MVS Nucleus?
I wonder why.
--
Tom Marchant

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Giliad Wilf
2017-09-13 15:04:13 UTC
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Maybe the code to be replaced is just a vendor's type 1, 2, or 6 SVC routine in the range 255 to 200.

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Peter Relson
2017-09-14 11:52:32 UTC
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As Chris B wrote, "not happening".

You would not only have to relocate any intra-module adcons, but resolve
any extra-module v-cons.
For completeness you would have to rebuild the control structures used for
NUCLKUP.

None of that is supported in any way.

Adding the module as page-fixed to dynamic LPA might work if it has no
extra-module v-cons and if no one needs it to be findable by NUCLKUP and
if whoever does need to find it can use some method other than NUCLKUP.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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