Discussion:
Migration of Mainframe to other plat form
(too old to reply)
James Wellingtin
2017-05-04 09:17:14 UTC
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Hey all
I think that I have got a lot of good and fine answers from many people in
this discussion LIST
You have really contributed in understanding of this topic.
And I also conclude from the amount of answers that it is something of
great interest ..

I would like to be a bit more specific and ask in for further detail.

The customer run Z/OS 2.1 and CICS TS 5.x and DB2 version 11.
and there're are of course many tools from different vendors e.g..
monitor, DB2 tools and abend debugging tool.


Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take

DB2
Cics
ZOS
Tools


And of course , you may still come up with further experience ,
considerations


Regards
James

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Elardus Engelbrecht
2017-05-04 10:44:12 UTC
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I think that I have got a lot of good and fine answers from many people in this discussion LIST You have really contributed in understanding of this topic. And I also conclude from the amount of answers that it is something of great interest ..
Just a few points from my side:

How do you plan to handle workload and response time on a server farm while ensuring no deadlocks can take place?

DB2 and CICS have good measures to ensure no two records are updated at the same time while keeping security and availability as top priority.
The customer run Z/OS 2.1 and CICS TS 5.x and DB2 version 11.
How many transactions are done per day and how many [active] users are working there? Can the 'new' server farm' and all the network resources handle the workload easily?

We have for CICS, for example, about 30 to 60+ million transactions per month, I don't know how many are there for DB2 and other database systems. And we are "small".

I don't think it was mentioned in this thread, but a regular complaint I see is - when the workload grows, you need to add more servers (with enough aircondit and electrical feeds) and disks to handle the load while z/OS hardware has already spare CPUs (and memory) available (if installed) waiting to be activated as per Big Blue agreement.
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating. What did they migrate to How long time did it take
Look at MetaWare long list of testimonials. Granted, you need to register (which I did not, because I am not in the mood to receive spam e-mails), but you probably will only see glowing testimonials and praises for MetaWare. I wanted to see how big the clients own ex-z/OS systems were, but ...
Tools
What tools?
And of course , you may still come up with further experience , considerations
Ask them if they have something to replace IBM's Peer to Peer Remote Copy. I believe there are similar things for that.

Ask them too whether they have products doing what HSM and SMS do?

Oh, ask them whether they can handle (on the server farm) Crypto and transactions/sessions using SSL and friends. I know these servers can do that in a way, but how do they that? And how fast (4K blocks per seconds for example)?

Last question - ask them about backward compatibility.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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David Crayford
2017-05-04 11:34:20 UTC
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I could be wrong but I don't think many sites replace their mainframes
with "server farms". Normally they would replace them with big boxes,
rack servers or blades depending on the size of the system. HP
Superdomes used to be popular a decade ago but it seems Xeon class x86
servers can now do the job and you can easily build a large system with
sufficient failover for enterprise applications. Virtualization on x86
systems is so advanced these days that having to run huge amounts of
servers is a myth. They squeeze every last watt out of the boxes. I know
this because I've been working on projects moving data from z/OS to
Linux on x86 and have been doing sysadmin on the Linux boxes. Having
said that, migrating a complex application from a mainframe to any
alternate platform is a major risk and not one that most sites would
want to undertake.
Post by Elardus Engelbrecht
I think that I have got a lot of good and fine answers from many people in this discussion LIST You have really contributed in understanding of this topic. And I also conclude from the amount of answers that it is something of great interest ..
How do you plan to handle workload and response time on a server farm while ensuring no deadlocks can take place?
DB2 and CICS have good measures to ensure no two records are updated at the same time while keeping security and availability as top priority.
The customer run Z/OS 2.1 and CICS TS 5.x and DB2 version 11.
How many transactions are done per day and how many [active] users are working there? Can the 'new' server farm' and all the network resources handle the workload easily?
We have for CICS, for example, about 30 to 60+ million transactions per month, I don't know how many are there for DB2 and other database systems. And we are "small".
I don't think it was mentioned in this thread, but a regular complaint I see is - when the workload grows, you need to add more servers (with enough aircondit and electrical feeds) and disks to handle the load while z/OS hardware has already spare CPUs (and memory) available (if installed) waiting to be activated as per Big Blue agreement.
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating. What did they migrate to How long time did it take
Look at MetaWare long list of testimonials. Granted, you need to register (which I did not, because I am not in the mood to receive spam e-mails), but you probably will only see glowing testimonials and praises for MetaWare. I wanted to see how big the clients own ex-z/OS systems were, but ...
Tools
What tools?
And of course , you may still come up with further experience , considerations
Ask them if they have something to replace IBM's Peer to Peer Remote Copy. I believe there are similar things for that.
Ask them too whether they have products doing what HSM and SMS do?
Oh, ask them whether they can handle (on the server farm) Crypto and transactions/sessions using SSL and friends. I know these servers can do that in a way, but how do they that? And how fast (4K blocks per seconds for example)?
Last question - ask them about backward compatibility.
Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht
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Tom Longfellow
2017-05-15 23:58:45 UTC
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Post by David Crayford
I could be wrong but I don't think many sites replace their mainframes
with "server farms". Normally they would replace them with big boxes,
rack servers or blades depending on the size of the system. HP
Superdomes used to be popular a decade ago but it seems Xeon class x86
servers can now do the job and you can easily build a large system
with sufficient failover for enterprise applications. Virtualization
on x86 systems is so advanced these days that having to run huge
amounts of servers is a myth. They squeeze every last watt out of the
boxes. I know this because I've been working on projects moving data
from z/OS to Linux on x86 and have been doing sysadmin on the Linux
boxes. Having said that, migrating a complex application from a
mainframe to any alternate platform is a major risk and not one that
most sites would want to undertake.
Let the pedantry begin: Superdome, Xeon, Rack servers, Blades, etc.
For this discussion they are all the same: A separately maintained set
of many boxes (with some virtualization to extend their reach) versus
the Great Satan, called MAINFRAME.
I have been in places where the P7 platform came in a big monolithic box
that had three times the memory and 'activated' CPU cores. Looked a lot
like the classic CMOS mainframe to me from the outside.

Steve Thompson
2017-05-04 13:00:55 UTC
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On 05/04/2017 05:18 AM, James Wellingtin wrote:
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>

I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been
frustrated with others about. One asks a question, and never gets
a direct answer to the main question being asked.

After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are
talking about the same company, they are a privately owned France
based entity.

I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about
them on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give
much to go on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats
they publish. Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I
know that 86.3% of all stats are made up.

And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this
list, one must assume that (1) none of us have experience with
them, or (2) those that do are not allowed to discuss anything
because of an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by
an out of court settlement or actually signed prior to
engagement, etc. or, (3) those who do have experience with them
are Lurkers that never post.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Mitch Mccluhan
2017-05-04 14:05:58 UTC
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For all of you who know who I am, I can provide some insight into this issue generically. I am not familiar with MetaWare (I have not run into them ever in any project I have been involved in over the past 18 years).

Regards,



Mitch McCluhan
***@aol.com





-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Thompson <***@COPPER.NET>
To: IBM-MAIN <IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Thu, May 4, 2017 9:01 am
Subject: Re: Migration of Mainframe to other plat form

On 05/04/2017 05:18 AM, James Wellingtin wrote:
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>

I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been
frustrated with others about. One asks a question, and never gets
a direct answer to the main question being asked.

After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are
talking about the same company, they are a privately owned France
based entity.

I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about
them on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give
much to go on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats
they publish. Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I
know that 86.3% of all stats are made up.

And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this
list, one must assume that (1) none of us have experience with
them, or (2) those that do are not allowed to discuss anything
because of an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by
an out of court settlement or actually signed prior to
engagement, etc. or, (3) those who do have experience with them
are Lurkers that never post.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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James Wellingtin
2017-05-04 15:10:25 UTC
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Hi Steve

No , I don't get frustrated of not having a direct answer to the main
question.

I really appreciate alt he answers coming in.
We are getting quite around a lot of things in this case and topic
And it is all of great value and all of the answers contributes to my
final analyze

So , please go on with answers

Regards

James
Post by Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>
I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been frustrated
with others about. One asks a question, and never gets a direct answer to
the main question being asked.
After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are talking about
the same company, they are a privately owned France based entity.
I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about them on
a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give much to go on in
this area. However, I am amused by their stats they publish. Such as a 295%
ROI in one year. But then again, I know that 86.3% of all stats are made up.
And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this list, one
must assume that (1) none of us have experience with them, or (2) those
that do are not allowed to discuss anything because of an NDA (Non
Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by an out of court settlement or
actually signed prior to engagement, etc. or, (3) those who do have
experience with them are Lurkers that never post.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
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Ward, Mike S
2017-05-04 15:33:21 UTC
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I did a google on IBM mainframe migration and here are two opposing viewpoints.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2015/08/14/mainframe-migration-fools-errand/#6fd702984cd3


http://modernsystems.com/10-commandments-of-successful-mainframe-migration/



-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Wellingtin
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:11 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migration of Mainframe to other plat form

Hi Steve

No , I don't get frustrated of not having a direct answer to the main question.

I really appreciate alt he answers coming in.
We are getting quite around a lot of things in this case and topic And it is all of great value and all of the answers contributes to my final analyze

So , please go on with answers

Regards

James
Post by Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>
I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been
frustrated with others about. One asks a question, and never gets a
direct answer to the main question being asked.
After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are talking
about the same company, they are a privately owned France based entity.
I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about them
on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give much to go
on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats they publish.
Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I know that 86.3% of all stats are made up.
And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this list, one
must assume that (1) none of us have experience with them, or (2)
those that do are not allowed to discuss anything because of an NDA
(Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by an out of court
settlement or actually signed prior to engagement, etc. or, (3) those
who do have experience with them are Lurkers that never post.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
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Rugen, Len
2017-05-04 15:40:38 UTC
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The modernsystems one looks like it might not be an objective opinion, they seem to sell that as a service :-)

Len Rugen

Metrics and Automation – ***@missouri.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ward, Mike S
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:34 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migration of Mainframe to other plat form

I did a google on IBM mainframe migration and here are two opposing viewpoints.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2015/08/14/mainframe-migration-fools-errand/#6fd702984cd3


http://modernsystems.com/10-commandments-of-successful-mainframe-migration/



-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Wellingtin
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:11 AM
To: IBM-***@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Migration of Mainframe to other plat form

Hi Steve

No , I don't get frustrated of not having a direct answer to the main question.

I really appreciate alt he answers coming in.
We are getting quite around a lot of things in this case and topic And it is all of great value and all of the answers contributes to my final analyze

So , please go on with answers

Regards

James
Post by Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>
I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been
frustrated with others about. One asks a question, and never gets a
direct answer to the main question being asked.
After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are talking
about the same company, they are a privately owned France based entity.
I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about them
on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give much to go
on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats they publish.
Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I know that 86.3% of all stats are made up.
And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this list, one
must assume that (1) none of us have experience with them, or (2)
those that do are not allowed to discuss anything because of an NDA
(Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by an out of court
settlement or actually signed prior to engagement, etc. or, (3) those
who do have experience with them are Lurkers that never post.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
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IronSphere by SecuriTeam Software
2017-05-04 18:04:49 UTC
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I like this one (below) under "The Mainframe Migration Payoff"
"

- 30+% system performance improvement
​"​ ...

​​

ITschak

-
Post by Ward, Mike S
I did a google on IBM mainframe migration and here are two opposing viewpoints.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2015/08/14/
mainframe-migration-fools-errand/#6fd702984cd3
http://modernsystems.com/10-commandments-of-successful-
mainframe-migration/
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of James Wellingtin
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Migration of Mainframe to other plat form
Hi Steve
No , I don't get frustrated of not having a direct answer to the main question.
I really appreciate alt he answers coming in.
We are getting quite around a lot of things in this case and topic And it
is all of great value and all of the answers contributes to my final
analyze
So , please go on with answers
Regards
James
Post by Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>
I understand your frustration. I am guilty of what I have been
frustrated with others about. One asks a question, and never gets a
direct answer to the main question being asked.
After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are talking
about the same company, they are a privately owned France based entity.
I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about them
on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give much to go
on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats they publish.
Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I know that 86.3% of all
stats are made up.
Post by Steve Thompson
And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this list, one
must assume that (1) none of us have experience with them, or (2)
those that do are not allowed to discuss anything because of an NDA
(Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by an out of court
settlement or actually signed prior to engagement, etc. or, (3) those
who do have experience with them are Lurkers that never post.
Regards,
Steve Thompson
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intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee,
you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify
the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by
mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing
or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is
strictly prohibited.
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--
ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|** An IT GRC for Legacy systems* *| Automated
Security Readiness Reviews (SRR) **|*

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Tom Longfellow
2017-05-15 23:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Wellingtin
Hi Steve
No , I don't get frustrated of not having a direct answer to the main
question.
I really appreciate alt he answers coming in.
We are getting quite around a lot of things in this case and topic
And it is all of great value and all of the answers contributes to my
final analyze
So , please go on with answers
Regards
James
Post by Steve Thompson
<SNIPPAGE>
Post by James Wellingtin
Have anybody experience with the vendor MetaWare doing migration ,
Did they succeed in migrating.
What did they migrate to
How long time did it take
<SNIPPAGE>
After doing a bit of research on MetaWare, assuming we are talking
about the same company, they are a privately owned France based
entity.
I have found nothing about them, using Google, to know much about
them on a technical/effective basis. Their website doesn't give much
to go on in this area. However, I am amused by their stats they
publish. Such as a 295% ROI in one year. But then again, I know that
86.3% of all stats are made up.
And so, since no one has said anything about them in/on this list,
one must assume that (1) none of us have experience with them, or (2)
those that do are not allowed to discuss anything because of an NDA
(Non Disclosure Agreement) whether effected by an out of court
settlement or actually signed prior to engagement, etc. or, (3) those
who do have experience with them are Lurkers that never post.
I agree. In this case, no news is BAD news. If they could really do
what they say, they would have the IT equivalent of the cure to Baldness,
Obesity and In-Laws. This company has not even had the requisite number
of "failures" to build a reputation that anyone has heard about. Before
deciding on your first mainframe migration, cut out the middle man and
send me a few million dollars to blow first!
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